DE Talk | The ROI of D&I Is Greater Humanity

Season 1 • Episode 5

Diversity and inclusion is not just a function of talent acquisition, it’s a company-wide effort that needs to take place in all areas of business to be successful. Our team sat down with leading diversity strategist, Torin Ellis, to discuss the importance of D&I and the foundational steps companies need to take to show real commitment to diversity.

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About DE Talk

For DirectEmployers, it’s all about valuable connections and meaningful conversations. This monthly podcast features honest and open dialogue between powerhouse industry experts on a variety of HR topics ranging from OFCCP compliance advice to emerging recruitment marketing trends, diversity and inclusion initiatives, and insightful solutions that help infuse new life into your HR strategies.

Hosted by Candee Chambers, Executive Director of DirectEmployers Association.

Guest Host

Episode Guest

Episode Transcript

Candee Chambers:
Hello, I’m Candee chambers, with DirectEmployers Association and I’d like to welcome you to another episode of the DE Talk Podcast. In today’s episode, Shannon Offord our Vice President of Strategic Partnerships sat down with Torin Ellis, a leading diversity strategist to discuss diversity and inclusion. If you’re in human resources and have not heard of Torin Ellis, then you’re missing out on a huge diversity and inclusion conversation that could elevate your efforts. He’s a true advocate for change and brings not only a passion for D&I, but also a perspective as a tenured practitioner, knowing the challenges you face each day.

Shannon Offord:
Hi everyone, this is Shannon Offord the VP of Strategic Partnerships here at DirectEmployers. Thank you for joining us today for our DE Talk Podcast, episode five. We’ll be focusing on a little bit about diversity inclusion today. We have an amazing guest today. Someone that I’ve known for many, many years, actually met him through a phone call when he was working for a major telecom company, like I mentioned several years ago. He and I have actually grown our friendship over the last several years and he is known as the hardest working man in recruiting. His name is Torin Ellis. He has spoken at several conferences around the globe including RecFest, DisruptHR, Hiring Success 19, Unleash, Strive 19, he also is the host of Career Mix on SiriusXM on Sunday. He was a contestant on Top Recruiter. He’s also an author and he is also a business owner. Again, I’d like to welcome Mr. Torin Ellis to the podcast. Torin how are you?

Torin Ellis:
I’m well. Let’s see. A father, a guy who likes to get out and run whenever the body permits him to do that. I absolutely love people, that’s who I am, so I’m doing wonderful and thank you for giving me some space on your pod. I love it.

Shannon Offord:
Oh, no problem. When did you start this running thing, I didn’t know about that?

Torin Ellis:
Yeah, so I’ve been running for a while now. You know there was a time Shannon, when I’ve served in the United States Air Force pardon me. When I was in the Air Force, I actually was in really, really good shape. I would work out often. I took martial arts classes, all of that. And then when I exited the Air Force in 1990, I continued to work out in gymnasiums across the country, wherever I was stationed or wherever I was living. But then just came to a point where I just got tired of lifting weights and I wanted to do something that I had not done and I had never been a cardio guy. So I started running, and I probably started running right around 2010, so it’s been about a decade now that I’ve been running.

The most that I’ve been able to do is 10 miles. I’ve only been able to do that once. And there was a reason why I did that 10 mile run here in Baltimore city. Typically I would do something like five to six miles, if you will. And now these days at my age and with some of the ailments that I have with my body, I’m happy to get out there two, three times a week and do somewhere between two and four miles and I’m good.

Shannon Offord:
Okay. I’m impressed. I was a triple jumper in college and I don’t think I’ve run 10 miles in my life. So we run down the runway, we get tired.

Torin Ellis:
There you go.

Shannon Offord:
So like I said, but thanks for joining us today. Could you tell us just a little bit about how you got in to the D&I space and kind of what led you to it?

Torin Ellis:
So the short story is I got into recruiting in ’93/’94 when I worked for a telecom company. I was responsible for building my own team, left corporate America in 1998, started a contingency firm, third party firm with a very dear friend of mine. We hit that economic collapse of 2001… I’m sorry, the internet bubble of 2001, and I can certainly go on with some of the other major dates, but for me the turning point was after the economic collapse of 08, I started to get tired of transactional recruiting. There was no longer a challenge for me. And I don’t mean that in a disparaging way, nor in a way that says that recruiting is easy. It was no longer a challenge that I found love in. And so what I did find love in was telling story and getting people to understand that there was a different opportunity, one that they should be considering.

What I found even more challenging was how many organizations had equal employment opportunity statements at the bottom of their website. And you would look at their boards of directors and it would be nothing but white faces. What I found even more challenging were press releases around the need for diversity and inclusion. And yet they were doing absolutely nothing. And I think the catalyst for me was that I have a good friend here in Washington DC, African American male. He worked for a data storage company. He was the only African American or person that was black or brown, if you will, on the sales team in the entire country. There were almost 200 sales people. He was the only one. That moment for me, 2011, is when it crystallized that we needed to do something different. I needed to do something different, not transactional, but focusing more on helping people optimize their strategy for finding underrepresented talent.

Shannon Offord:
And I kind of understand that. I mean obviously a lot of meetings I go to, I’m the only African American in the meeting as well. So definitely kind of understand where you’re going with that. Why do you think we’re still having this conversation in 2020? This conversation has been going for a long time and obviously I think there’s been some progress, but we continue to have this conversation even though there’s this supposed, “war for talent.” I mean, what do you think the cause of that is?

Torin Ellis:
So first and foremost, I throw paint on anyone who says, “war for talent.” It’s a phrase from 1998, and it just sickens me to my core. Like folks come up with these phrases and they gain traction and we all find ourselves sometimes becoming culpable in the reference and the utilization of these praises. Business has always fought to find incredible talent, so this is nothing new. But that being said, when we talk about why do you think it is, you’ve got to look at this D&I conversation in many ways, Shannon, is over a 100 years old. You have to think about Ford Motor company back in 1913 one of the first large corporate clients that were spending time and being very intentional around hiring a variety of individuals, and I don’t know if they necessarily called it diversity and inclusion, but they were one of the first large organizations that hired African Americans, that hired people with some form of disability that hired Irish people, if you will.

So Ford was one of the first, in 1913, you got 1919 the veterans where they started gaining traction in the workplace, 1961 an executive order around racial equality, 1964 of course the civil rights act. And then you have the diversity reports over the last, let’s say six, seven, eight years, 2013 or ’14 depending on where you’d like to start the count. My point in referencing those is that this D&I conversation is not just over the last 10 years, it’s not just over the last 20 or 30, it’s actually one that goes further back. And so when you ask why, for me it’s because people don’t care, period. It’s easier for us to put up a report to put something beautiful at the bottom of our website, to go on and get some stock photographs of some black and brown folks and sit them at a desk, to promote one person and to say that we’ve done well, it’s easy for us to put a chief diversity officer in place and not give them any power or resources.

It is very easy to do things that will assuage the general population or the employee work force, but to not be substantive. And so I think that for too many organizations, Shannon, they’ve not been substantive. They’ve been placating, they’ve been a perimeter if you will, but they’ve not been very serious. There is not one tech company, not one. And I’m not picking on tech because I think too many people have picked on tech. We can go Wall Street, we can go healthcare, I can go government, I can go in any direction. There’s a lack of diversity. But no tech company right now would put up with AOL dial-up, not one, not one. So then why is it that we are still comfortable with the lack of representation and not trying?

Shannon Offord:
Yeah, I would agree with that. Obviously if you look at the leadership, the people that are of color in leadership positions, I mean there’s very few and that’s in tech and non-tech companies. I mean there’s definitely not a representation at the top. Or in many cases throughout the organization for that matter. You know, like I mentioned, I mean many times, and I’m sure you’ve experienced this too, you’re the only one in the meeting and you’re looking around and you’re like, “You know what? There are people just as qualified as I am and why aren’t they sitting at the table?”

Torin Ellis:
Yeah, I mean, Ken Chenault said that, you know, I can’t remember exactly where the interview took place, but Ken Chenault, the former chief executive officer for American Express, he said exactly the same thing. There are a number of talented people that can do the job that I’m doing right now, but they are not given the opportunity. Janeen Uzzell from Wikimedia Foundation shared with my audience, my SiriusXM audience last year. You know, it is extremely hard and she built an incredible career at general electric. It’s extremely hard for individuals to continue to want to fight, to thrive inside of organizations when they are not respected, when they are not recognized, when they are not valued, it is very, very difficult.

And so I just think that for a lot of these organizations you need to find a way to set aside your fear of whatever it is that you are afraid of, and understand that all of these white papers and these reports by catalysts and Kaleidoscope and Deloitte and McKinsey and Boston consulting group, when you look at these reports that say that diversity and inclusion has a measurable impact on your bottom line, and you say you believe them, then you need to do what it takes to chase that belief. And that doesn’t mean that you have to be perfect. It doesn’t suggest, Shannon, that a individual organization is not going to have some missteps. Doesn’t mean that we don’t need to move some people around. It just simply means that we should be substantive in our effort. And I say effort over initiative. Initiatives come and go. Effort becomes the lifeline of the organization.

Shannon Offord:
Right? It’s definitely not,”I’m going to put a diversity program in place and it’s going to have a finish and an end”. I mean that’s just not the way things work. And I think, you know, so many people feel that anytime they put an initiative in place it has to have a beginning and an end. I think this is a way companies have to live and breathe. They need to actually, really think that diversity is important to the organization and value it and bring it into their culture.

Torin Ellis:
No, absolutely. I always tell people there is no finish line in this work. You know, when you look at where we are as a global economy, there is no finish line in this work. First and foremost, diversity and inclusion look different here than it does over in AMEA. It looks different in AMEA than it does in Europe. It looks different in Europe than it may look in Latin America. So first and foremost, it’s different globally. Second of all, when you look at the shifts that are happening geographically, they’re predicting that Russia is going to be the country in 2050 with the most Muslims. Russia. Russia will have the most Muslims as a country by 2050.

We know what the numbers look like here for the US by, I think it’s like 2040 or 2042 and so I just think that when we are thinking about where people are and migrations, and geographies, and economies and education and job opportunities, I mean when we think about all of this, we should all be thinking about this is a conversation that will rest with us forever and it’s okay that it will rest with us forever. I’m cool with that.

Shannon Offord:
So if you’re a company out there and you want to get serious, how do you go about doing that? Like what do you do? Like, how do you structure your team? I mean, what do you do to actually show and mean that you’re being serious?

Torin Ellis:
So I think your question was, what does it look like to be serious? There’s a number of ways to look at that, but I try to be a bit foundational. So first and foremost I think the steps… Let me back up. So Shannon, for me, when I go into an engagement, when I’m looking at an organization, I’m looking for three things.

I’m looking for empowerment. I’m looking for individuals to feel like they have support and they can raise their voice, whatever that voice is, however that voice comes out, emits whatever it needs to say. People are comfortable and strong enough in saying what needs to be said. Empowerment is extremely important. Number two, I look for strategic exploration. I’m looking for organizations that are curious, they want to be successful, they want to make progress in this regard, and they are willing to explore a variety of different options to figure out what option works best in their culture, in their environment, with their composition, with their product service suite, with their geographic footprint, with the marketplace. I’m looking for that strategic exploration. And then last but not least, Shannon, I’m looking for tactical execution.

So now that we’ve explored it all and we’ve put some data in place or we baseline things, whatever, now we’re going to do the work. We’re going to allocate resources, we’re going to put man and woman hours on that. We’re going to put technology against that. We’re going to put plan in place and we’re going to do all of these things. But if an organization is not willing to explore their voice, they’re not willing to explore different strategy and they’re not willing to execute, it really doesn’t matter. They’ll continue to do press releases and stand up and pontificate about how wonderful of a workplace they are. And they will absolutely do nothing that moves the needle around diversity and inclusion. And for some of those they will skate by Shannon.

They will make it, they will get through the next 10 years, 15 years, 20 years for whatever reason, they’ll still be there for the largest of organizations, that’s not going to be the case. So that’s what I look for. To your point exactly around team and composition, it really depends. I think the first question that I challenge everyone to ask, is what stage of the business are you in? Because D&I looks different in your business unit or your department, depending on the stage of the business that you’re in. And many people, they try to take issue when I say that, but I tell them, very, very simply, you can’t have the same leader or talent in a startup organization as you might have in a mature organization. Chemistry doesn’t work. The workload doesn’t necessarily align, the responsibilities and the rapid pace in which we have to do things a different.

So I think that it’s extremely important no matter who you are in the organization, you have to know what stage of the business you are in. Are you in a startup phase or transformation phase? Are you in continuous improvement, maturation? What stage of the business are you in, in your business unit or your department? And then we began to shape our efforts from there and it goes back to reinforcing what I said a moment ago around there’s no finish line in this. Because today we may be in continuous improvement but tomorrow we may be in maturation because we got it. You know we change whatever that continuous improvement was. It’s been a four year process. It’s been a 24 month process. It’s been whatever. Now we’re just in a float stage.

We’re, moving slow and steady. Well that may require some different people, that may require a different headcount management strategy, that may require we recruit differently, we would promote differently. We look at learning and development differently. We look at supply chain differently. You see where I’m going with this? What I impress upon my clients is that D&I is not a recruiting thing only. It’s an every single value point thing, and until organizations understand and look at it that way, we’ll continue to have a nascent and hiring conversation and in some cases, Shannon, a punitive conversation. We’ve got to switch how we approach it and then we can put some air and some love under that conversation and have some more fun in some more success.

Shannon Offord:
All right. I think when you mentioned the punitive piece, I think that a lot of people do think that it’s punitive unfortunately. They don’t realize how important it is to the business and to the overall culture right, they think, “Oh we have to do this.” And they begrudgingly do it and it’s really not something that they should approach that way I think. But unfortunately you do hear that to be the case at times.

Torin Ellis:
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I just think that when you do it the right way, and you get more people inside of the organization feeling as if they are a part of how this process unfolds, you know, they don’t have to be at the top of the table, but they are a part of the conversation, whether that be through an ERG or BRG. Whether that be through, it’s black history month. We should be having conversations in our organization around black history, around people like Mr. Roy Clay Sr. who had a hand in starting Hewlett Packard that we know today, or HP that we know today. He’s still living, people like that. We should be inside of our organization thinking about how to celebrate not only black history month, but women’s month and international women’s day, which is March 8th and equal pay day and the equal pay day for all three audiences, white women, black women and Latino women.

You know, we should be thinking about how do we have just rich environments where it’s not a punitive thing. It is a conversation of promise. And even if in that one instance or in a few others, it’s uncomfortable. It’s still conversations around promise. It’s around people being a part of what’s taking place in the organization. And what I often say to people, Shannon, and I’ll go to my grave saying it to them, the ROI of D&I is greater humanity, period. And if you do D&I right and you are looking for the best ROI, then that’s us being better humans. And I don’t see anything at all wrong with greater humanity.

Shannon Offord:
I would 100% agree with that. And one thing you did mention about, a lot of people thinking it has to start at the top and which many times it does, but it has to go throughout the entire organization. I mean that organization needs to really embed itself in the community in which it serves.

Torin Ellis:
Yeah, absolutely. And so that’s again why I remind you, that’s why I listed learning and development. So I mean when you traditionally think about D&I, that conversation rarely moves beyond talent acquisition, rarely. And then when it moves beyond talent acquisition, it might go to employer branding. Do you understand what I’m saying? It might go to… Now, again, I’m not legal because legal wants certain language to or not to be inside of job descriptions and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. My point is that D&I has to get beyond just talent acquisition and onboarding. It’s got to be inside of supply chain.

It should be in corporate social responsibility. It has to be inside a board governance. It should be talked about on the agenda. How do we show up in the community? Where are we doing our banking? How do we allocate funds to nonprofits? I mean, I can go on and on and on. It’s something that should be who we are, and if we do that, again, I sound like a broken record, but if we do it that way, then it’s not punitive, it’s promising, it’s fun, it’s engaging. It may be hard, it’s a good day’s work. That’s what it is.

Shannon Offord:
I agree. I want to switch gears just a little bit and not necessarily switch gears, but one thing that we do at DirectEmployers and actually with our Recruit Rooster arm, we do a lot of D&I videos for employers. You know, and some employers who are thinking about doing a D&I video, they just come out and say, “Hey, we don’t have a lot of D&I,” or, “We don’t have a lot of diversity in our organizations. Like what do we do?” You know, if you were going to be working with those employers, what would you advise them to do if they were putting together a video, to try to encourage not just African Americans, but diverse candidates in general to come into their organizations? Like what would you encourage them to do? Like what would you tell them to put in their video?

Torin Ellis:
Yeah. Well, I would put the truth in your video.

Shannon Offord:
Okay.

Torin Ellis:
You know, don’t go out and hire actors or actresses, don’t hire props, just put the truth in your video. Let leadership talk about the initiatives and the effort that is being placed into changing the composition of the workplace, and for reason. You know we see value in that, and it’s something that we are working very hard to do. So put truth in your video. And that message can come from anyone inside of the organization, but most certainly it should be coming from people in a hiring capacity. It should be coming from people in leadership. It should be coming from people that are going to be managing other talent. And it should come from individuals that are the talent, because you get a different perspective at every single level of the organization.

And so I say put truth inside of your video. Don’t try to sugarcoat it. Let’s talk about what it is. And I think that people… I think we’re at a stage now with Gen Z and Millennials and others that are in the workplace, Shannon, I just think that we are at a stage where they can handle that truth. They can swallow and appreciate that truth. And for some of them it may be a Jackie Robinson moment where they may be the first person in an organization, or they may be one of few in an organization, but they’re willing to cross that barrier and to become that individual because something else inside of the messaging on the website and email blast in job descriptions, it resonates with them. So we can be honest, we can be truthful, we can be on mission, and we can change the organizations, the composition of representation inside of our organization.

Shannon Offord:
Again, I’m with you and I always encourage recruiters when they’re actually talking about D&I to be honest. I know if I were interviewing, I would want to be honest. I want somebody to be honest with me, and tell me exactly where they were in their journey and kind of what their goals were longterm and why they wanted to diversify the organization. I think that’s so important to just be up front and let them know where you are today, but then also let them know where you want to go.

Torin Ellis:
I couldn’t say it better. I mean again, I think the best of us do it that way. You know when you are… I’ve never been one and you know, don’t know too many that just sling requisitions and poorly place people in ill-fated positions if you will. I used to pride myself, Shannon, when I was doing transactional recruiting, you know all of those engagements have a guarantee clause. And I started my firm in 1998 from 1998 to 2012 and I get a little fuzzy on the number, but from 98 to 12 I think I had to replace two people, I’m sorry, three people. One person was through one of my contract recruiters that worked with me, and I took responsibility for that. And then the second and third replacement was for the same client, the same position. And the manager came to me and said, “You know Torin we had the specs all wrong. You gave us what we asked for, but that’s not what we really need.” So I still took responsibility and replaced that person. So that pretty much is my footprint. In my transactional recruiting days I’ve only had to replace three or four people in all of those years.

Shannon Offord:
Like very impressive. So I do want to switch gears now. So what’s next for you? Like I know you’ve been going to Europe, I know you’re going to Australia, I know you’re doing crazy big things, but kind of what’s on the radar for you?

Torin Ellis:
Yeah, it’s real simple for me, Shannon. I want everyone between Archie Bunker and George Jefferson to get a message around diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. What do I mean by that? I use that example because for many that speak, or that train that stand in front of a room, they’ll say, “As long as I reached one person.” Well that ain’t good enough for me. And so when you ask what’s next for me, I am pursuing a variety of projects that allow the voice to hit every single individual. And again, I don’t want to only talk to talent acquisition and employer branding people. I want to talk at accounting conferences. I want to talk on talk shows. I want to be seen on places where a D&I conversation would probably be the last thing you would expect on the agenda. But that’s where we want to be.

So I want to sit on a couch with name one of these these nights, night show personalities. Trevor Noah, you know, I would love to sit on a couch with Trevor Noah and talk about diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, because he’s got an audience of millions of people that come into our workplaces all around the world. And we have to interact and interface with them. I need them to understand why this is so incredibly important. So when you say what’s next, what’s next is ambition. That’s the easy one word response that I could share.

Shannon Offord:
Well, like I said, I mean you’ve been doing some some huge things since we initially spoke, and I’m proud of you, my man. You’re doing it and getting that message out and I think people are starting to hear and respect the work that you’re doing. So I just appreciate it. Am I going to see you at Unleash in March in London or no?

Torin Ellis:
No, you won’t see me at Unleash in London. I smile because you will see me at Unleash in Vegas for the second year in a row, I’m going to be the emcee. So just hold your horses. Anyone out there who has purchased your ticket, if it’s your first time attending Unleash, you’re in for an incredible experience. We had a grand and epic time last year, Marc Coleman, China Gorman and George LaRocque decided that they wanted me to come back this year and MC, I think it had something to do with the various outfits. You know, I had my own little red carpet affair when I was asked to be the MC. So I made sure that every day I had on something that made me feel like I was the sharpest man in Vegas. The most comfortable man in Vegas. The most confident man in Vegas. We had a very good time and we’re going to do the same thing this year as well.

Shannon Offord:
So you’re saying if I come out, I got my work cut out for me to try to match you, right? Is that what you’re telling me?

Torin Ellis:
No, you don’t. You just show up the way you show up. I just know how I’m going to show up. You understand what I’m saying?

Shannon Offord:
I get you. I get you. Hey, just one last question. So final, final takeaway. If you want to give one takeaway from our conversation today, what would that be?

Torin Ellis:
I’m just going to go with one of my favorite sayings, the ROI of D&I is greater humanity. That all of us, Shannon, we should all be able to pursue this work in some way, no matter what our capacity, position, role, we should be in some position to pursue this work. We should be willing to make some mistakes, to recalibrate and then to chase down measurable progress. We should be saying to ourselves that we don’t want our children, our grandchildren, to have a nascent conversation around diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging in the next five or 10 years. So that’s the one thing that I want people to take away. Take a self assessment and ask yourself what might I do differently and then do something.

Shannon Offord:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your friendship and at times your mentorship. I mean it’s been awesome getting to know you and I can actually call you my friend, and it’s been awesome. So thank you again for today and we will talk soon.

Torin Ellis:
We absolutely will, and again to you, thank you and to your audience that will be listening, my only request is that you continue to support Shannon in the work that he and the team at DirectEmployers are doing and that you share this podcast. You know, don’t be shy in hitting that share button, share this podcast far and wide. Shannon, I appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Shannon Offord:
For the listeners out there who would like to continue the conversation with Torin, you can reach him by visiting torinellis.com, that’s T-O-R-I-N-E-L-L-I-S.com, or you can connect with him on LinkedIn, or on Twitter at @TorinEllis.

Candee Chambers:
Thank you again for tuning into another episode of the DE Talk Podcast. With so many great topics to cover be sure to follow DirectEmployers on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and remember to subscribe, rate and review the DE Talk Podcast to be sure that you’re the first to receive notifications of new episodes available each month. Thanks again for listening and look to have you join us in the future. Thank you.