DE Talk | Empowering Women in Leadership Roles

Season 1 • Episode 6

Women represent nearly 50% of the US workforce, yet only occupy 10% of the top management positions in S&P 500 companies. To discuss how female executives can empower one another in the workplace, I sat down with Elizabeth Jennings, Acting Executive Director of the National Disability Institute, and Heather Hoffman, COO of Recruit Rooster, to talk about closing the gender gap that exists in leadership and how mentorship shaped their careers.

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About DE Talk

For DirectEmployers, it’s all about valuable connections and meaningful conversations. This monthly podcast features honest and open dialogue between powerhouse industry experts on a variety of HR topics ranging from OFCCP compliance advice to emerging recruitment marketing trends, diversity and inclusion initiatives, and insightful solutions that help infuse new life into your HR strategies.

Hosted by Candee Chambers, Executive Director of DirectEmployers Association.

Episode Guests

Episode Transcript

Candee Chambers:
Hello, and welcome to the DE Talk Podcast! I’m really excited to chat with our guest, Elizabeth Jennings, from the National Disability Institute. But I’m also excited to welcome Heather Hoffman from Recruit Rooster. This is a conversation I’ve been looking forward to since we began the podcast series.

Today we’re going to be talking all about women in leadership. Why women make excellent leaders, the gaps that continue to exist, and what we can do to nurture, support, and help develop future female leaders.

Let’s start by sharing a little bit of our backgrounds and how we got into our roles. Elizabeth, why don’t you share your background and story, first. You’ve worked exclusively in the nonprofit space, I think.

Elizabeth Jennings:
Yes, that’s correct, Candee. First I want to give just a quick thank you to you, and to DirectEmployers, for having me with you today, and for your efforts to increase diversity in the workplace, including those efforts for people with disabilities.

For the last 20 years, I have worked exclusively in the nonprofit sector. I’ve worked as a direct service provider for a local Goodwill, as a funder focused on community impact for United Way of Palm Beach County, and for the last 12 years, at the national level for National Disability Institute, where I am currently the acting executive director.

Early on in my career, I made the decision to work in the nonprofit sector, because of the ability to focus on mission, and to lead multiple partners toward solutions that positively impact people with disabilities.

Candee Chambers:
Wow, it’s funny, I’ve only been in the nonprofit sector for about six and a half years and… came from corporate America, but if I had it to do all over again, I think I would have gone directly to the nonprofit space. I sincerely enjoy what we do here.

Heather, in that… continuing that conversation, what about you? Where did you begin, and what is your current role with Recruit Rooster? You were part of the non-profit and now you’re not.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you, Candee. I’m the Chief Operations Officer of Recruit Rooster, and really where I begin… as I kind of pondered this question here, I grew up, really, in business. That’s really where I started my journey in the business world, back when I was just a little kiddo.

Out of college… this is Candee’s actually favorite university, I went to Purdue University. I figured we would make sure to work that in there. Boiler Up! Went to Purdue and right out of college I quickly became an entrepreneur. I’ve known since I was a little girl that I’ve always wanted to be in business.

Heather Hoffman:
I then got into the corporate world back in the early 2000s, and worked my way into sales and human resources. Worked my way up the ladder into management, and then into leadership. I’ve been with DirectEmployers now since 2012. Recruit Rooster spun out of DirectEmployers… we’re a wholly owned subsidiary of DE, back in 2018.

Candee Chambers:
Okay. That’s been a fun story, and we absolutely love the name of that side of our business, Recruit Rooster. We have so much fun with that.

Heather Hoffman:
We do.

Candee Chambers:
I think everybody thinks that we’re staffing agencies, and we’re not. We have a great time with that.

I guess I’ll just give a little quick background of my own. I actually never really thought about going into business. I honestly thought I was either going to be a school teacher, or a clinical psychologist. Here I am in corporate… or was in corporate America for 30 years, and now in the nonprofit space.

Interestingly enough, when I was in college, my mother and I went to Orlando, Florida and visited our neighbors from when I was born there, and the man of the family asked me, he said, “Candee, what do you want to do when you graduate?” I said, “I think I’m going to probably end up teaching, or going on to get my Master’s in psychology. He said, “Well,” he said, “Either way, you need to decide if you want to be a small fish in a big pond, or a big fish in a small pond.” When I was 18 years old, I didn’t really know quite what that meant. I spent 30 years as a small fish in a big pond, in corporate America, and was a Member company of DirectEmployers. They contacted me to come here and it was the best move I ever made.

To your point, Elizabeth, the nonprofit space is completely different, and I think it allows a lot of opportunity for people that don’t really know how their abilities can divert from one area to another. I think it’s been a great opportunity for both Heather and me, I think.

Heather Hoffman:
I agree.

Candee Chambers:
I love how varied our pasts have been. I truly feel like it’s our life experiences that help mold us as leaders and shape our ability to inspire and encourage those around us. As women in leadership roles, it’s really our job to not only lead the organization, but also set an example for up and coming women on our staffs in the industries we serve, as well.

Elizabeth, what motivated you to become a leader? Then Heather, I’m going to ask you the same.

Heather Hoffman:
Sure.

Elizabeth Jennings:
When I thought about it, I thought I wasn’t sure at first that I had a motivation to become a leader. I was very fortunate to work for a Goodwill that recognized that I had skills, and encouraged me to apply for… and then I did receive a position to direct a federal grant. That position really allowed me to flex some leadership skills and become a leader within the organization. There were many other grantees for the same project in our state. Once I got a taste of using my leadership skills among these multiple partners, I really was hooked. I saw that as a leader, you could have an incredible opportunity to make a unique difference, that you could focus more on macro issues and implementation as opposed to the one on one service delivery. That ability to bring people together and guide them towards one focused solution is really what kept me in this leadership space for all of this time.

Candee Chambers:
Elizabeth, and Heather, when you answer the question, did you actually think… I know, Heather, you said you wanted to go in to business. Did you actually think, some day I want to be a leader?

Elizabeth, what about you? Then you add that to your answer, Heather.

Elizabeth Jennings:
I didn’t actually know, when I was young, that the job I have now existed. I knew that I wanted to make a difference in a civil rights movement. I had a very strong focus on fairness. I think the way that I work is what grew those passions into being a leader. It wasn’t an intentional and deliberate path that I put myself on. It was more taking opportunities as they came, and recognizing what I wanted to contribute, and the different ways that I could make those contributions.

Candee Chambers:
Interesting. Heather, what about you?

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. For me, I would say obviously we all have different upbringings. Mine was more of an instinct, not something that really evolved over time. I mentioned earlier on that I grew in business, maybe I’ll paint that picture a little bit more for you.

My father was, and still is, an entrepreneur and has multiple businesses. I’m an only child and so outside of school, at a very young age, my afternoons and evenings and weekends were spent in the business world. I didn’t know anything different. That was just a regular life for me. That is really where I started my love for the business world. I was just involved, and around, leadership constantly.

It’s more of a natural thing for me. As, obviously, my career has progressed, I started within sales and then worked my way up. It’s something that I not only value, but also really enjoy, working with each and every one of what I like to call, The Roosters, on the Recruit Rooster team. It’s a privilege for me to be able to work alongside of them.

Candee Chambers:
It is funny, like I said, I never really thought, oh, I really want to be a leader someday, but I had always done well in school and I think leadership… I’m a huge proponent of doing the best job in the job that you have. I think a lot of times, leaders just emerge from the roles that they hold, because you can tell who the smart workers are, the hard workers are, and they emerge because they can be counted on, they can be relied upon, and that sort of thing. I guess that’s kind of what happened with me.

This is going to be an interesting one for Heather. I’m going to ask you first, Elizabeth. The reason I’ll tell you it’s going to be interesting for Heather is because we just, all of us on our leadership team here at DirectEmployers, just finished a DISC Profile. Think about how you’re going to answer that, Heather.

Elizabeth, I’m going to ask you what your leadership style is, and to talk about how you lead your team as a result.

Elizabeth Jennings:
Sure. Now I’m very excited to hear Heather’s response.

I have a very collaborative leadership style. Here at NDI I work hard to foster the empowerment of every staff member, from the folks who are doing the programmatic work to the folks who are doing administrative work. I want each person to lead their work and to support each other, and importantly, to use their practical wisdom to do what they believe is the right thing to do in the moment.

Within our structure, I find opportunities for shared leadership of meetings and projects. We try very hard not to be very hierarchical, because we want everyone to feel that they have power over the work that they’re doing and the decisions that they’re making.

Then, I make myself available to talk with staff about their work, what they’re passionate about, and how they can use the connection between the work they’re doing and the passions they have, to motivate them for the extra push that it takes sometimes, and maintain their engagement.

Candee Chambers:
That’s very cool.

Elizabeth Jennings:
One other thing I think… oh, thank you. Yeah. We have actually found this to be a really great strategy for success and in preventing some burnout, is to look at what staff are passionate about and see how we can craft our work around those passions, because they are motivators for people to be even more innovative and work even harder than they already do.

Candee Chambers:
All right.

Elizabeth Jennings:
I wanted to point to one more piece of our leadership values here, and that is holding responsibility for the choices that we make. Even when we’re wrong. Even when we make mistakes. To view all of those moments as just ways to fail forward, to acknowledge that we made a mistake, and to use it as a moment in time to learn from it, rather than feeling that it’s a deficiency on anyone’s part.

Candee Chambers:
Well, I call that a learning opportunity, or a teaching moment. I agree with that.

Elizabeth Jennings:
Absolutely.

Candee Chambers:
I agree with that philosophy. Heather, what about you?

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. I mean, I would echo what Elizabeth had mentioned there, the collaborative style. I think that we carry that-

Candee Chambers:
I do, too.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. Yeah. We really do, throughout DirectEmployers and Recruit Rooster, so that’s something that we share with you, Elizabeth.

I would say as far as my own personal leadership style, it’s really evolved over time. I really try to keep positivity in mind. Some days that easier than others. Any type of conversation that I’m having with staff, whether it be guidance or constructive criticism, I try to keep that constructive component top of mind. Really, I feel like I’m, hopefully, one of their biggest cheerleaders, when it comes to motivating them and encouraging them to function throughout the day.

Candee Chambers:
Is that right, Jordan? She’s a Rooster.

Jordan:
Yup.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. Just for those listening, so we have a Rooster employee sitting here with us, and then she can possibly comment on that.

Candee Chambers:
Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with the collaborative style, and I also, Elizabeth, to your point about having an open door, we kind of have a joke in my office about my door being a revolving door because people are always in and out. Even if my door’s closed, somebody will knock on it.

Heather Hoffman:
That is very true.

Candee Chambers:
I also think part of that is because we’re women. I don’t know that I would knock on a man’s office door, and just say, “Excuse me, I want to come and talk to you.” I’ve thought about that periodically. I think that might be something… and I don’t think it’s a sign of disrespect at all, I just think that there’s more of an openness, or a more of an opportunity that people think they can just come on in. I’ve thought about that periodically, that maybe they wouldn’t do that if that were a man.

Okay, next question. Elizabeth, I’m always going to pick on you first, since we don’t see you here. Are there certain qualities or traits that you feel have helped propel you forward?

Elizabeth Jennings:
I thought about this question quite a bit, and I think that there are definitely qualities and traits that leaders have or build in order to be successful in a leadership position.

Moreso I thought about this moment in time several years ago when I purchased a magnet for the fridge here at NDI. It says, “Failure is not an option.” I think that sentiment has aided me greatly. It propels me forward. It gives that mix of persistence and my deep core belief that if you work hard, if you have a strategic approach, if you’re creative and collaborative, and to your point, Heather, if you have a positive attitude, anything is possible.

When you work in the nonprofit sector, you have to do a lot of grant proposals, you have a lot of hard deadlines, you have to rein together a lot of people to move in one direction, and this concept that failure is not an option, that we just have to keep moving forward and getting it done, is something that I think has helped me greatly, and helped all of us here at NDI to keep on trucking. Keep on trucking.

Candee Chambers:
There’s never a delay in the amount of work that we have front of us, is there?

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, yeah. If I may, I’d like to kind of comment on the failure is not an option. I love how you kind of coined that term there. For me personally, as part of my journey, failure has been an option. What I’ve done, is I’ve just tried really hard to learn from each and every failure. It sounds like you did a little bit of preparing yourself, Elizabeth. I did some, too, and I jotted down, fail forward, rather than fail and revert. You need to learn from mistakes that are made. Not only that potentially you make yourself, but with those around you. I’m always looking to other’s successes and their failures and trying to absorb what it is they’re doing and not doing that could have potentially made them better, and then apply that myself.

Candee Chambers:
I wholeheartedly agree. I think it’s kind of like making people angry. I always say, “If you don’t make anybody angry, you’re not doing anything.” There are times that you have to do things that aren’t in maybe everyone’s best idea of something that you’ve had to decide upon.

One thing that I’ve learned, and it was kind of a tough lesson, and it was thanks to one of our senior leaders here. Shortly after I took over this role, he told me that I needed to stop being so defensive. It’s one of those things that you don’t really realize that you are defensive or that you have various shortcomings. My immediate response was, “What do you mean? I’m not… oh, I’m not defensive.” It was something that, it was constructive criticism and it was delivered in a positive way, I get that, but it’s always hard to hear, but I’ve tried very, very hard to not be defensive. It’s tough. Sometimes I fall back into my old habits, but I do try to make sure I keep that new mentality moving forward. It is kind of a challenge sometimes. It’s not necessarily a failure, but I do… you could consider that a failure, and failing forward. I think that’s something that we all kind of share.

Elizabeth, how did you reach your level of success given the workplace gender gap, especially among leadership?

Elizabeth Jennings:
I think I was consistent in three things. I always worked hard, I put in a lot of time, and watched for opportunities to give extra. I worked closely with the leaders of each organization I was in, and other leaders in the community, to learn from them and also to be a supportive collaborator with them. I felt that that was really important.

I think the most important thing I’ve done is take ownership of my decisions. I have watched and been around many talented people who do great work, but they don’t want to be left holding the bag as the decision maker. I think that that’s an important component of rising towards the role of being a leader, is you have to be willing to make decisions, sometimes really hard decisions, and take ownership of those decisions. Even when they turn out to be the wrong one. That, I think, has made a huge difference for me.

Candee Chambers:
Well, I think always, too, even decisions that maybe aren’t the best at the time, as long as you can justify why you made them at the time, and then fix the problem. If you don’t do anything wrong, how are you going… What somebody told me one time is that if you’re all perfect, and you don’t make any mistakes, it’s going to be a pretty boring world. I think we have to have mistakes to help us be better.

Elizabeth Jennings:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Candee Chambers:
Heather, what about you?

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, I share in Elizabeth’s comments there. She stated, “Give extra,” and my response to that, Candee, would be persistence and consistency with performance. Since we work so closely together, you know some of the skills that I have and that I try to apply on a daily basis. For me, organization, consistency…

Candee Chambers:
Heather is truly the most organized person I know.

Heather Hoffman:
I have a love for processes, I really do. Where there’s not a process, I will create one.

Candee Chambers:
This is true.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. As my leadership style has evolved, too, I believe that I’ve become more humble as the years have gone on for me. I’ve also became more empathetic towards my peers and the staff that reports to me. I try to maintain that day in and day out.

Candee Chambers:
Part of that, Heather, is aging.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. That’s right. That’s right. Actually, one of my comments later on, I’m going to talk about my age.

Candee Chambers:
See, it is good for us to be getting older.

Heather Hoffman:
It is, yeah, and to be transparent. You want to be transparent, absolutely.

Candee Chambers:
It’s funny, Heather and I talk about this quite a bit because we are for all intents and purposes, a couple of tech companies. We love the fact that we’re two females leading tech companies. That’s relatively unusual. We have about half of our leadership team is made up of females.

Heather Hoffman:
Right.

Candee Chambers:
We find that to be pretty cool, especially in this space, to have women as leaders. I think we’re respected leaders in our field, as well.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, definitely. I think that it adds a lot of skills to the table.

Candee Chambers:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I really do, too.

All right. Let’s look at some facts. Women represent 50.8% of the US population, and they earn more than 57% of undergraduate degrees, and believe it or not, 59% of all Master’s degrees. However, women only occupy 10% of top management positions in the S&P 1500 companies, and constitute only 11% of the top earners in Fortune 500 companies. For someone who has worked her way up through various positions, I see this as a problem. I attribute it to unconscious or implicit bias. How can we change the view of women in leadership roles and change the system to be truly inclusive and an equal playing field for both men and women? Elizabeth, you’re up first.

Elizabeth Jennings:
Yeah. When I looked at this, Candee, I thought there’s also new information that women now hold just over 50% of American jobs, excluding farm workers and the self-employed. All of the effort to have women enter some fields has really worked, as now 56% of the US workforce for scientists and engineers under 29 years old, are women. I really consider it that we have quite an interesting majority going on. You asked a great question, which is, what are we going to do with this?

I think, to start, we need to speak up. We recognize that women do less negotiating for salary. We accept lower salaries than men. We’re not necessarily trained on how to ask for what we want, or really how to recognize our worth. Then we can feel some frustration with younger workers who come in and ask for pay that’s out of scale, that they don’t yet have the education and experience.

There is some nuance here that we need to train women on how to better negotiate, how to recognize their worth, and also support young women when they go a bit out of scale, how they can be on a path to earn what they want, and how they can better understand what’s the right scale within your own organization. I think part of that really starts with those of us who have access to pay scales and compensation packages, that we need to speak up. We need to be very clear and address inequity and be consistent in that.

In my role here at National Disability Institute, I actually work with our director of finance. We assess compensation each time we work at increases in pay. Then we work across leadership to address any inequities that may exist. That takes time, it takes diligence, it takes discretion, but it’s really important. If we as women leaders don’t demand pay equity for ourselves and our staff, I don’t know who will.

Candee Chambers:
I think you’re right. I think there’s a lot of people that are still getting used to women feeling comfortable and speaking up. I think doing it in a respectful, knowledgeable, convincing way is obviously key to that.

Heather, what do you think?

Heather Hoffman:
I have to say that’s the D in my DiSC. Speaking up and making my opinion known, hopefully in a way where I have awareness, that constructive…

Candee Chambers:
See, I’ve got the influencing, so see, I can influence them that I need to make more money.

Heather Hoffman:
We’re a good team, that’s for sure.

Heather Hoffman:
Well, I’ll say, Elizabeth, I loved that you stated that we should really be supporting young women that are looking to get into leadership roles and that’s definitely something that Candee has done with me personally. I think later on we’re going to talk about other leaders that have inspired us, and she’s definitely one that has inspired me, and impacts me on a daily basis.

My response to that question would be show up. First you have to show up to the opportunity. Also, you need to expect equal pay, and through that, perform and prove that you’re worth it.

Candee Chambers:
I think you’re right. For me, it’s about making our male counterparts our allies. Oftentimes I look around in meetings and I’m literally one of only a handful of female leaders in the room. I, fortunately, have a mindset related to partnership and inclusion, and influencing with my DISC profile. I’m a person that builds relationships easily. I feel like I’ve been able to somewhat break through the glass ceiling and be invited to the table to be part of some amazing conversations. What do you guys think? You feel like you’re an accepted part of a group when you’re in a meeting?

Heather Hoffman:
I do. Absolutely. I really do, especially here. Throughout DE, I think that we support women in leadership very well. I think that we’re delivering in that aspect.

Candee Chambers:
Elizabeth, what about you?

Elizabeth Jennings:
I would agree. We have a large majority of our team and leadership here at National Disability Institute is comprised of women. I really have to give a shout out to our founder and first executive director, Michael Morris, because it is under his leadership that so many women were brought in and promoted internally. We did have a wonderful ally in Michael-

Candee Chambers:
I liked him.

Elizabeth Jennings:
… And continue to do so. Yeah, he’s great. He’s wonderful.

Candee Chambers:
Do you know what? The first time I met him, the prior CEO of one of my corporate America positions, the CEO’s name was Michael Morris. It was like, wow, when I met your Michael Morris from National Disability Institute, it really took me aback. It was like, oh, there’s another one. Both were great guys, so that’s kind of cool. Anyway.

Elizabeth Jennings:
That’s great.

Candee Chambers:
Yeah. I can honestly say we’re living in a really interesting time where the topic of women in leadership is not being brushed under the rug. I’m very excited to head up an organization that supports my leadership, and Heather’s as well.

It’s proven that time will not solve the gender leadership gap, only action will. As leader’s, we have the responsibility of creating an equitable workplace culture. My question is, how can we do this in our own organizations?

Elizabeth Jennings:
Overtly, Candee. Overtly.

Candee Chambers:
There you go. Yeah.

Elizabeth Jennings:
We have to be really intentional about this.

Candee Chambers:
I think you’re right. One thing we’ve been trying to do… and Heather, I think you’ll agree, we’ve been trying to be a lot more transparent. We’ve tried to share our future direction. We have a pretty good mix here of men and women. I think we’ve actually been hiring more women technical people, and that’s a positive. We have a lot of… I mean, our marketing department is all female. We have a lot of females that are rising.

Interestingly enough, Elizabeth, one thing I wanted to mention, DirectEmployers is a 501(c)(6), so we’re a trade association. Part of our mission is to be there for our members. One of Heather’s clients actually called us customer obsessed. I think a lot of that, and I’m truly not trying to stereotype, but women tend to have that type of attention-

Heather Hoffman:
Nurturing.

Candee Chambers:
Nurturing, yeah.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Candee Chambers:
Background, so that’s been very beneficial for us as well.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Candee Chambers:
Okay. Let’s switch gears a bit. I know everyone has someone in their life that has helped mentor them or inspire them throughout their career. For me it was Mary Cofer. I’m going to have to send her a link to this.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Candee Chambers:
She was my former boss at American Electric Power. Even today she brings a smile to my face when I think of how she encouraged me to grow, and challenged me throughout my career. She was one of those people that, honestly, she’s still probably one of my closest friends. I could call her any time of the day or night, and she would be there for me, no question whatsoever.

Who are some females that have helped shape your career? Elizabeth, we’ll start with you.

Elizabeth Jennings:
I have actually been very lucky to be surrounded by female leaders in both my personal and professional life. I’m one of five sisters.

Candee Chambers:
Oh, geez. Mom was four.

Elizabeth Jennings:
Five sisters born across seven years. Yeah, mom worked really hard. My mom has a mantra of, “Principles over personality.” She and my dad raised us to see ourselves as independent, smart, and highly, highly capable.

When I entered my professional career, I found that that was fostered by several female mentors I had. Kathy Spencer at Goodwill. Alexandria Douglass-Bardelone at United Way. Sharon Brandt here at National Disability Institute.

One mentor really held the course with me across all of my jobs. Her name was Barbara Buck. She passed recently, very recently, and I find myself wanting to call her and talk to her, and instead, asking myself, WWBD—What Would Barb Do? I think that’s the power of a good mentor, that their guidance stays with you even when they can not be with you.

Heather Hoffman:
That’s really cool.

Candee Chambers:
That is very cool, and isn’t that what I say about Mary all the time?

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, about Mary.

Heather Hoffman:
I’ll just share that we here at DirectEmployers had the opportunity to meet Mary a few years back. She came to our annual conference, DEAM… I think it might have been DEAM18?

Candee Chambers:
17, I think.

Heather Hoffman:
17. Okay, yeah. It was just, it was an honor to meet her and to finally put a face with the name, and share in some of the stories that Candee has shared with us. Yeah.

Candee Chambers:
That she went on and on, sharing.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. Yeah. It was fun.

Candee Chambers:
Yeah. Everyone has to love her though.

Heather Hoffman:
Oh, yeah. She’s great.

Candee Chambers:
Who is your mentor, Heather?

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. Well, as far as within the work space, Candee, you’re my mentor.

Candee Chambers:
Oh, that’s good to know.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. I mean, you’re actually the first-

Candee Chambers:
Don’t screw it up, Candee.

Heather Hoffman:
You’re the first female boss that I’ve ever had.

Candee Chambers:
Oh, wow.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. You’ve been a great example of leadership for me.

Another mentor of mine, I would have to say is my mother. Hands down, she’s been a true example, for me, of leadership in our family. She spent many years assisting my father run his businesses while he was out traveling the world. She did so in a successful manner. She’s got an amazing heart, and faith that I just truly admire.

Candee Chambers:
Well, just to not slack my mother, I actually had notes that I was going to-

Heather Hoffman:
Did you?

Candee Chambers:
Yeah. I, honest to God. She was a strong and independent woman. She… back in the day when you said that somebody had to work, so my mom had to work. She raised me. My sister is 13 years older and I was basically raised as an only child. My mom worked and I still had to go to school, and she was always there for me, she focused on what I needed. She had nothing. She made my clothes a lot of times. Always made sacrifices for my success.

I have… Elizabeth, you said you were one of five, my mom was one of four. I’m one of two. I have two daughters, so it’s kind of like all girls. Now I have two grandsons and I told my daughter I don’t know what to do with them. I’ve got to learn how to occupy boys, which I’m babysitting for soon, which I dearly love to do. It’s, I think a lot of it, interestingly enough, all three of us had strong parents. Strong mothers.

Heather Hoffman:
It starts at home. It really does start at home.

Candee Chambers:
It really does. My daughter, I’m loving, literally loving watching her raise my grandsons, because she’s following in the same footsteps to a large extent.

I think we can all agree that mentors are very important in our lives.

One interesting point is that women may not always realize how poised for success they might be in leadership roles. What do you think, both of you, are some qualities that make women great leaders? I see one word that I’ve written down, Heather, that I know you just said, too. Elizabeth, what do you think?

Elizabeth Jennings:
I think we’ve covered a lot of them. Humility. For me, I think women often have a mission to do something for the greater good. That can be very motivating and compelling. Dedication, courage of conviction. What I most see in women that I don’t as frequently see in men is this ability to see the strengths and talents of other people, and to find ways to be supportive without taking over, or diminishing the other person’s power.

I’m a student of positive psychology. Understanding how to build self-efficacy, how to shift from, “Wow, you did a great job with that,” to, “How did you come to decide to do it that way? How did you know that this would be the path we needed to take?” To help people recognize the strengths that they’re bringing to the table, and the abilities that they have is something that I think I see more in the way women talk to other people, than in the way men talk to them. It’s very powerful to me.

Candee Chambers:
That is. Heather, what about you?

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. Be teachable. There’s so much to learn. Just to constantly have your eyes open, and your ears open, and to be able to absorb from those around you. That dedication that Elizabeth alluded to. If you want something, you’ve got to work hard for it.

Candee Chambers:
I second what you just said about be teachable, and continue to learn. My younger daughter made the comment one time that she really finds it difficult that people get to a point in their careers where they figure that they don’t have to learn anymore because they’ve already done everything they need to do. I thought, wow. That, to me, is almost the first sign of failure. I mean, you always have something to learn, even if it’s just on a personal level, it always makes you better.

Heather Hoffman:
True.

Candee Chambers:
At least that’s my opinion.

Everyone has moments in their career where they are uncomfortable with growing and stepping into new roles. Elizabeth and Heather, I’d like you to tell me about one of those moments and how leaving your comfort zone impacted your career.

Elizabeth Jennings:
Sure. I had this moment, actually about six years ago. Well, I’ve had this moment many times, but one that really stuck out to me was close to six years ago. Michael Morris shared with me that he saw my potential for succeeding him when he came to the time of retirement. While I was honored and humbled, I was really terrified. I remember standing in his office and saying, “I don’t think that I would want to have this job.” He told me, “I understand, but I’m certain that you’ll change your mind.” That comment really made me pause.

I recognized he wasn’t asking me what I wanted right now, he was asking me to figure out what would I would want… what would I want five to 10 years from now. Instead of doubling down on my fear, I accepted the fact that I didn’t know how to do the job, and told him that, that my fear was based on the fact that I didn’t know how to do his job, and that if he had this thought, that I would need training. That I would need to build new skills, I would need to learn all the stuff I didn’t even know I didn’t know, especially around nonprofit management. Within a year, he named me as deputy director and over the last five years, being in that role has really equipped me with the knowledge and skills I needed to step in last year as acting executive director.

Candee Chambers:
Well, he obviously had faith in you. Heather?

Elizabeth Jennings:
Thank goodness he did, yes.

Heather Hoffman:
He saw something in her that she didn’t necessarily see in herself at that point.

Candee Chambers:
Exactly. Exactly.

Heather Hoffman:
Which is a great sign of leadership, right?

Candee Chambers:
Yup.

Heather Hoffman:
He was a great leader.

For me, this would have been back in 2011/2012. It was coming over to DirectEmployers. At that point in my career, I was so successful in sales and management, it was scary to leave something that I had done such a phenomenal job at, and venture on into the leadership world. Some of the same feelings that Elizabeth had, it sounds like, when she was taking on this new journey, just fear of not being able to perform the job. There was a lot for me to learn. You have to kind of power through some of those feelings. My drive kicked in and my willingness to succeed. I feel like it was such a great move, again, just being teachable. If you’re putting yourself in that position to be teachable, you can continually climb the ladder.

Candee Chambers:
Well I, interestingly enough, my experience was an assignment that Mary had given me. I was going to do what is called on onsite compliance evaluation with the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs. Mary taught me everything I knew about affirmative action. I was going to do an onsite and I did not feel prepared at all. I said, finally, I was fretting for three or four days and I finally went in to her office and I said, “Mary, I honestly… I don’t.. I can’t do this.” I was literally stumbling just like that. I said, “I can’t do this.” She put her pen down and she said, “Candee, number one, I don’t ever want to hear you say the word can’t, again. Number two, do you honestly think I would set you up to fail?” You talk about the effect that those mentors have on us, but she had faith in me that I didn’t have in myself, and I needed that confidence in me to be able to be successful.

One other time I had an audit, after I had left American Electric and Power, and went to Cardinal Health where I did have a couple of other female mentors there, Donna Mann and Nancy Shaw. I had an audit there and I called Mary to see how to handle it, because they wanted some information and I didn’t know if I should send it. She was on vacation. Can you imagine? She didn’t answer my phone. I was like, you know lady, you could be waiting for Candee to call any time she needed you, but I had to make my own decision, and I was successful.

She called me about a week or two later and she said, “Hey, I’m sorry I missed your call. What did you need?” I told her, and I said, “So,” actually I asked first how she would handle a situation like that. She told me and I said, “Yes.” It’s exactly what I had done. I think I needed to figure out that I had it down. I knew what I needed to do through her teaching. That was kind of my way then to realize that I’ve got it. I can handle this on my own.

Heather Hoffman:
She may not have answered that phone call on purpose, for you to be put in that position to make your own call.

Candee Chambers:
I have thought about that. That snot. I still love you, Mary, if you listen to this.

Heather Hoffman:
We’ll have to get the real scoop now that it’s years gone, right?

Candee Chambers:
Exactly. Exactly. All right. I’ve got just a couple more questions.

What do you both do… Heather, I know to a certain extent just because I know your family, but Elizabeth and Heather, we all try to have personal lives outside of work. How do you both have, or how do you maintain, a level of work-life balance that both supports your career aspirations, and your personal life?

Elizabeth Jennings:
This is a great question, I think. When I struggle, I struggle with this concept of a work-life balance because I get a lot of well being from work. I really love the work that I do.

Candee Chambers:
Me, too. Yup.

Elizabeth Jennings:
It’s important. There’s a psychologist, Martin Seligman, who created the PERMA model of well being. For me, work covers that entire PERMA spectrum. It gives me positive emotions, engagement, positive relationships, meaning, and accomplishments. I do have a rule that I set for myself, and I encourage other staff to adopt. We talk about it very openly. My rule is that I monitor my well being at work. If I’m not experiencing well being, then I pause to kind of figure out what’s going on. If it’s after hours, or I’m at the office on the weekend for something, and I feel like I’m not experiencing well being, I go home. If it’s in the middle of the day, I might decide I need to get up, take a walk, just take a break, make a connection with someone. This is the way I kind of balance it, that I have the things I do in my personal life that are fun and the people that I love, and all of those relationships that I foster, but I don’t deny that I really love being at work. I just acknowledge that work is important to me, and that it’s okay and healthy to take a step away from it when I want to engage in other things.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, I have to agree with that. You just make it sound very eloquent in the way that you describe it.

Candee Chambers:
She does.

Heather Hoffman:
When the weekend is coming, I’m ready for the weekend, and when the weekend is coming to a close, I’m ready for work.

Candee Chambers:
Exactly. I honestly, I don’t get upset on Sunday evening when I’m going back to work, and I was here on Sunday at the office.

Heather Hoffman:
I look forward to coming in and seeing everyone. I mean, you guys are like a second family.

Candee Chambers:
She does have two adorable young children, except they’re Purdue fans. I’m still working on them.

Heather Hoffman:
They are Purdue fans and they make sure to tell Candee every time they come in to the office, they wear their attire that is supporting the university. For those of you that don’t know, Candee is a die hard IU fan. This is the one thing that we never can agree on, and we love to just throw it in each other’s faces.

Candee Chambers:
We’re going to have our own Old Oaken Bucket competition in our lobby next year… or this year, I guess. This fall.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. To that point, Candee, I do have a family at home, and two young children. A son, and a little girl, 11 and five. I’ve got an awesome support system. I have a husband that’s very supportive of my career. He has a career himself as well. He supports me when I travel, and he’s not afraid to cook, which I love.

Then my mother is very active in our lives. She’s a caretaker before and after school, which is very helpful for me, so that I can leave early and get home late.

I just love being busy. That’s one of the things that really drives me, is that I’m busy here at work but I also love being busy at home. Had I not had that type of characteristic, I don’t know that I’d be able to continue moving on. It’s a good thing that I like being busy. I can serve both purposes very well.

Candee Chambers:
That’s what… yeah. I mean, I’m fortunate because both my kids are grown. They’ve got their own careers. One is an elder law attorney, and one is an athletic trainer. They’re very busy in their careers. I have a husband who’s retired, so I can kind of come and go as I please, so that helps a lot as well.

This is probably going to be one of the toughest questions. What has been the most significant barrier in your careers? I think I know how Heather’s going to answer, but Elizabeth, I’m going to let you go first.

Elizabeth Jennings:
Sure. I think working in the nonprofit sector, the greatest barrier to my career has really been funding. That’s because we struggle with having the discretionary funds that we need to be truly innovative. For my work personally, I want to test new interventions on resilience and overcoming internal barriers to employment that I believe will create a new body of work for me, and for NDI, but also have an important impact on the workforce system, and specifically on the employment of people with disabilities. While it may not seem that it perfectly aligns, if we don’t have the funding to do things we are most innovative… we think are most innovative, it doesn’t just stall our work, but it stalls what we can do in our careers, it stalls how creative we can be and how we can test our own limits. That, I think, is really my greatest barrier right now.

Candee Chambers:
Interesting. Interesting.

Heather Hoffman:
For me, I was kind of kicking this around this morning with Candee, my biggest barrier has been my age, and how young I am. Growing up in the business world, it’s like I came out of the womb ready to do business. I’ve got 30 years experience at this point, but I’m just so young. I mean, I’m older than 30 but I’m not…

Candee Chambers:
She’s not as old as me. Although, I started when I was 12.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. Our previous executive director, Bill Warren, he was the DirectEmployers founder, he used to kid around that he had socks older than me.

Candee Chambers:
Wow.

Heather Hoffman:
Yup.

Candee Chambers:
I wonder if they had holes in them.

You know what? Interestingly enough, my biggest, or most significant barrier was… this is going to sound really bizarre, especially what my background is, and it was my color, and I’m a white female. I spent many years working with Mary, and she’s a black female, and she was retiring. They told me that I was perfectly qualified to take her job, but I wasn’t the right color.

Heather Hoffman:
Wow.

Candee Chambers:
Talk about making Mary angry beyond belief. You know what? I think that was probably a good step for me because it wasn’t long after that, that I left and went to Cardinal Health. I think stuff like that, when that happens, it I think made me a little stronger, and made me, I think, look inward at what I can do and what I know, and what I am capable of. I honestly think I took that well. It was one of those failures, but-

Heather Hoffman:
In your eyes…

Candee Chambers:
Exactly. Exactly. I do believe that that is probably kind of the impetus to where I am today. I really do believe that. It’s interesting the different types of barriers that we’ve all had to face. I think any successful person, male or female, has had some type of barrier in the background.

Heather Hoffman:
Sure.

Candee Chambers:
Okay. Last question. How do you think females can differentiate themselves in the workplace? We work with a lot of men, a lot of other females as well, but how can we… and I mean all females, how can we differentiate ourselves?

Heather Hoffman:
I’ve got a fun answer to this one…

Candee Chambers:
Okay.

Heather Hoffman:
I have an answer for this, if you don’t mind.

Candee Chambers:
No.

Heather Hoffman:
I say, let your skills shine, with a big exclamation point. I think that we, as women, we have unique skills and abilities and there’s definitely a need for us, so keep that in mind.

Candee Chambers:
I thought mine was very simple. Make a difference.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Candee Chambers:
That’s, Elizabeth, kind of what you’ve been saying, too. Make a difference. Don’t just let your presence be something people take for granted, but make a positive difference is what I should say. Elizabeth, what do you think?

Elizabeth Jennings:
Yeah. When I thought about this, my mind really went to psychological safety in the workplace, and new research that’s demonstrating that when people are afraid at work, they aren’t as cognitively sharp. They’re demotivated. I was thinking about how women can differentiate themselves by looking at how they handle power, the power that you have right now, and how you can handle additional power in a way that’s going to be very thoughtful. I think people want leaders that they can trust, and that trust includes being able to speak up, question decisions, make mistakes about being mistreated or punished. As we noted, when people make mistakes it’s an opportunity for everyone to learn. This not feeling safe at work can be really a drain on people. Women can really take hold of a new stake in workplace culture where they can be good stewards of power by being conscientious of their approach, responsive to the reactions of staff, which you noted earlier, Candee, and open and flexible to the idea that we as a leader may need to change so that we can be what our staff needs, and be making sure that just the issue of having a position of authority doesn’t create an unintentional and unwelcome power dynamic.

Candee Chambers:
I agree. One thing, and you kind of hinted towards this… and I think women leaders do a good job at this, and that’s managing the individual. So many people think that you manage a team and you manage everyone the same.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. The group.

Candee Chambers:
You have to manage the individual.

Heather Hoffman:
So many personalities.

Candee Chambers:
Exactly. It’s like I said at the very beginning, if everybody was the same, it’d be a pretty boring world, if we were all perfect.

Candee Chambers:
My last comment is, I think it’s important to let people know that it’s good and expected for them to bring their whole selves to work, and their authentic selves to work. I think it kind of goes along, Elizabeth, too, with what you’ve been saying about how you treat the employees at the National Disability Institute. We want to have a collaborative environment, we want to have people feel comfortable being who they are. I see that with Heather and the Roosters. We have Roosters running around all over the place.

I want to thank Elizabeth Jennings and Heather Hoffman for joining me today. I’m truly proud to work alongside both of you ladies. There truly comes a point in your career where it’s really not about you, but how you engage and empower others. I think we all can agree on the importance of continuing this conversation.

Learn more about each of us by connecting on LinkedIn, where we will include info about each of us in a short blog post following this podcast. Thank you again for tuning in to another episode of the DE Talk Podcast. With so many great topics to cover, be sure to follow DirectEmployers on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and subscribe to the DE Talk Podcast to receive notifications of new episodes available each month.

Thanks for listening, and this is Candee Chambers with DirectEmployers. We appreciate you being a part of our podcast!