DE Talk | Myths & Barriers: Helping Individuals Who Are Blind Find Their Place in the Workforce

Season 5 • Episode 2

With over 20 million Americans who are blind or visually impaired and a 70% unemployment rate for these individuals, it’s clear that much work remains to help them find their rightful place in the workforce. In this episode, we sit down with Jeff Mittman and Brandon Wells of Bosma Enterprises and its Visionary Opportunities Foundation, an Indiana-based organization providing solutions and creating opportunities for those who are blind or visually impaired, to discuss the barriers to employment these individuals face and the common myths and misconceptions that prevent them from being hired. They also share advice for employers to help attract blind or low vision individuals and what they can do to accommodate these employees to help them succeed in the workplace.

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About DE Talk

For DirectEmployers, it’s all about valuable connections and meaningful conversations. This monthly podcast features honest and open dialogue between powerhouse industry experts on a variety of HR topics ranging from OFCCP compliance advice to emerging recruitment marketing trends, diversity and inclusion initiatives, and insightful solutions that help infuse new life into your HR strategies.

Hosted by Candee Chambers, Executive Director of DirectEmployers Association.

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Episode Guest

Episode Transcript

Candee Chambers:

Get ready. The DE Talk Podcast starts now insightful conversations and dialogue, helping you put the human factor back in HR.

Shannon Offord:

We often talk about the unemployment rate for individuals with disabilities being doubled that of non-disabled workers. But if you dig deeper, you’ll find that the unemployment rate for those with low vision or blindness is 70%. Yes, seven, zero.

We’ll unpack this alarming statistic along with BOSMA, a local organization serving and supporting Hoosiers with low vision or blindness by uncovering what employers can do to remove existing barriers to employment, and create meaningful employment programs for blind and low vision community.

Today, I have the privilege of welcoming Jeff Mittman, the chief executive officer of BOSMA Enterprises, and Brandon Wells, executive director of BOSMA Visionary Opportunities Foundation to the DE Talk podcast. Welcome, Jeff and Brandon.

Jeff Mittman:

Thank you.

Shannon Offord:

Yeah. Thanks for joining us today. I guess, before we get started, share with our listeners a little bit about yourselves. And Jeff, thank you, first and foremost, for your service as a US Army Veteran. Why don’t you go ahead and go first, and then we’ll get to Brandon.

Jeff Mittman:

Oh, thank you, Shannon. You’re more than worth it.

I was born and raised here in Indianapolis, and then went off and I joined the Army, and spent about 22 years in the Army as an infantryman. And then, on 2005, July 7th, 2005, I was hit on an ambush in Baghdad and woke up a month later in Washington DC, at Walter Reed, unable to see, talk or walk. I had lost the majority of my vision along with several other injuries, and spent about five and a half years in and out of the hospital, before I finally retired. But that brought me in contact with BOSMA Enterprises and one of the first emails I got actually when I woke up and was unable to see was from an employee at BOSMA Enterprises, and then about 15 years later actually became the CEO of that organization. So it’s kind of a neat story, but that’s what brought me to BOSMA is losing my own vision and becoming involved in the community. So I’m really, really happy to be here and assist other people to get opportunities that they didn’t have otherwise or wouldn’t have otherwise.

Shannon Offord:

Awesome. Again, thanks for joining us and for your service.

Jeff Mittman:

Thank you.

Shannon Offord:

Brandon?

Brandon Wells:

Yeah, Shannon. So I am originally from California. I’m an adopted Hoosier. So I moved here about a little over 11 years ago. I met this beautiful Hosier out in California and we were married and once the family was on the way, she really wanted to come home. Those Midwest roots run pretty deep, and I was a willing participant. So I kind of arrived here by chance, but I loved it immediately and I love Indiana and I definitely consider myself an adopted Hoosier. And after a spell on higher education, I really found a home in the nonprofit industry, specifically working with foundations. And in short, I came to BOSMA because of the mission. I met Jeff, I met Brian BOSMA, our chairman, and once I heard what the needs were in this community and more importantly how we can impact this community positively, it was really a no-brainer for me to join the team at BOSMA. And I’ve been here a little over a year now.

Shannon Offord:

Awesome. I’ve known BOSMA for quite some time. Actually, it was a representative from BOSMA that came in and talked to DirectEmployers many years ago and talked about different partnership opportunities that we may have with BOSMA. In fact, during the time that he and I were chatting, I tried to hire him. I guess I can admit that now, but he was very committed to the mission that was there at BOSMA and wanted to stay there. And I would still try to hire him today actually, but I know he’s with another organization here in Indianapolis. But can you talk a little bit about BOSMA and just BOSMA’s mission?

Jeff Mittman:

Sure. BOSMA Enterprises or BOSMA has the mission of providing opportunities for people who are blind or visually impaired. So we do that through really three areas. We have the enterprise side where we actually employ people who are blind or visually impaired on federal, state, local contracts working. And about 50% of our workforce is blind. So all the way from a brand new first line employee up to me as a CEO all throughout the organization. As a matter of fact, I have about 17 people who are blind or visually impaired in leadership or professional roles within the organization. So that’s the enterprise side. That’s where we generate the revenue and things.

Then we have a program side where we are actually the only blind comprehensive blind rehabilitation program in the state of Indiana. So we take Hoosiers from all across the state and we run them through our programs. And that could be anything from our residential center where they come in, they spend three or four months learning how to deal with their vision loss, learning the activities of daily living, how to take care of yourself, how to cook, how to use a computer, things like that, or employment services where we actually assist people who are blind in finding employment or in our senior program where we actually go into homes and we assist people who mostly are suffering from age-related diseases that cause loss of eyesight, help them adjust to living without vision and remaining independent so that they can kind of age in place.

And then of course, that’s not a cheap endeavor, it’s an expensive endeavor, so we have the foundation, the BOSMA Visionary Opportunities Foundation of which Brandon is the Executive Director that raises money to support our programs in perpetuity and to build our endowment so that we can continue to provide those services to Hoosiers all across Indiana.

Shannon Offord:

Thank you. About how many people are diagnosed annually with different types of vision related issues and blindness?

Brandon Wells:

Yeah, so right now there’s about 20 million Americans who are living with some type of visual impairment that’s roughly 8% of the population, so it is a large number.

Jeff Mittman:

And there’s about 160,000 Hoosiers with vision loss in every sector of the economy or every social economic stratosphere. So it’s probably more common than people actually realize, but that’s why we exist is to help those people out.

Shannon Offord:

Yeah, I doubt most of us realize how many people live with vision related issues. I know one of my neighbors actually received services from BOSMA and still, actually I think are receiving services from BOSMA and her vision became more impaired, and BOSMA was a great help to her in learning how to live with vision impairment. So, could you talk a little bit more about your program, specifically your employment programs that you offer Hoosiers here in Indiana?

Jeff Mittman:

Sure, absolutely. So our employment services team gets referrals mostly from the state of Indiana through vocational rehab, and they actually spend the time to evaluate the individual to see what their skills are, what their desires are for employment, work with them on things like resume writing or interview skills, work with them on their interests and what they would like to do, then actually go out and assist them in finding employment here in Indiana.

And it doesn’t really stop there because there’s support after the employee starts, there’s support before the employee starts. So our employment services team will actually work with the employer because we all know there’s a lot of questions about hiring somebody who may be blind or visually impaired. And our employment services team will actually work with the employer, answer their questions, assist them with anything they might need before the employee even shows up because we know a lot of people are just afraid to ask those questions. So trying to break down that barrier with the employer to break that down before the employee even shows up, just really easy to transition on both sides. So we’re really happy about doing that. And any given time, we’re probably working with 120 individuals trying to find them employment throughout Indiana. And if anybody wants to hire somebody, please let us know. We’re happy to help.

Brandon Wells:

Absolutely. And Shannon, I think it’s important to add that we are the only organization that provides service to adult Hoosiers who are blind or visually impaired in Indiana. So for our employers that are listening, Jeff is absolutely right. If you have opportunities, we have clients here that can do the job just as good or better than anybody else with limited accommodations. And that’s where our programming team comes in, is preparing our clients to live their best life independently in the workplace.

Shannon Offord:

I know at the start of our talk today, I mentioned that the unemployment rate nationally for those individuals who are blind is 70%. And to me that number’s just crazy. I mean, it’s double the unemployment rate for those with other forms of disabilities. Can we talk about that a little bit and can you give me your thoughts around that?

Jeff Mittman:

Sure. I think what you’re seeing there when it comes to hiring somebody who’s blind or vision impaired, the biggest barrier is the unknown, right? You don’t know what you don’t know. I’ve always said when I woke up and I had lost most of my vision, I was really the first blind person I’d ever met. So you have to seek out that knowledge and what to do and how to do it. And I think what you find is the biggest barrier and the biggest reason for the employment’s, not that people who are blind or visually impaired don’t want to work, but it’s the misperceptions of their capabilities and what you could do to accommodate. I think a lot of people think that some of the accommodations are expensive or that they’re hard to get or that you can’t fire somebody who’s blind or visually impaired. Listen, I want you to hold people who are blind and visually impaired to the exact same standard you hold to everybody else. You accommodate the disability, then you hold them to the standard. And I think our employment services team does a great job of explaining that to employers.

And even if somebody just has questions, they can call us and we can answer. But it’s those misperceptions about people’s capabilities and they’re afraid to ask. So as a result, they just avoid the question or they avoid hiring somebody in the first place. And that’s what you run into a lot. And that’s why I encourage a lot of people who are blind or visually impaired when going through an interview, to actually be upfront and talk about it. Say, Hey, I’m coming here to work. The only thing I need is the software on my computer, and I can do the exact same work everybody else does. You don’t have to worry about it. I got it. And just be upfront with that and reassure the employer that you have the capabilities to do the job no matter what your disability.

And that’s what we tell a lot of people when they’re looking for work. And that’s what we encourage and that’s what we help employers and employees with. So I think those misperceptions and misconceptions of somebody’s capability or what it might take to employ somebody is really the barrier to that employment of people who are blind or visually impaired.

Shannon Offord:

Some of the things I’ve heard related to employment with individuals with disabilities, or specifically in this case with blindness are transportation issues. Can you talk a little bit about that and ways that employers can work with individuals who may be looking for employment with their organizations related to the transportation issues that a lot of people think exist?

Brandon Wells:

Yeah, that’s a big one, Shannon. That’s a big one. And Jeff, I know you can add a lot to this, but a couple of things I want to share because it came up recently is I was speaking with a potential employer just a couple of days ago about our reverse job fair that we have coming up. So on October 26th, we have the opportunity for employers here in the Indianapolis region and really statewide to come and interview some of our clients who really are ready to return to the workforce.

And one of the things, and this was a friend of mine, so they were speaking pretty candidly that they just weren’t sure if they knew how to accommodate an employee. And one of the things that came up was things that we take for granted every day, like transportation. And one thing that I mentioned to them immediately was, well, while there’s a lot of things that need to change, it is better now than it was several years ago because of things like ride services and ride-sharing apps and things like that. But it still remains a huge, huge challenge. And I know Jeff can speak pretty eloquently about some of the technological stuff that’s happening right now to assist those.

Shannon Offord:

I know that we keep hearing talk about self-driving cars and different forms of transportation that are being tested currently. And I know at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, they’ve had cars out there testing that are self-driving. I know in Indiana and Ohio, there’s self-driving trucks right now that are being tested in the northern parts of Ohio and Indiana. Talk about how that may impact individuals who are blind in the future.

Jeff Mittman:

Well, I think in the future I think it’ll be a big help, but one of the things we’ve worked with one of our sister organizations, Envision, in Wichita, Kansas, they have the Envision Research Institute. One of the things they’re working on is you can have an autonomous car, but you have to really gear the interface to somebody who’s visually impaired. So we’ve invested and contributed and they’re doing quite a bit of research on the interface between the car and the person who’s visually impaired. So some of those barriers that are in the way even with technology, have to be worked through first. But eventually, once we get that completely worked out, I think it’ll be a true tool for somebody who’s looking to gain independence. And obviously employment and transportation are two of the biggest barriers to independence for somebody who’s blind or visually impaired.

Shannon Offord:

Another thing I just want to touch on just real quick, and this is something that I know a lot of employers have struggled with and are really trying to invest resources in right now, and that’s really career site accessibility. We’ve heard not only from employers but from job seekers who suffer from lots of different, to give you an example, I mean I’m colorblind or color resistant or however you’d like to call it. My eye doctor likes to call it color resistant, but anyway, I have trouble seeing color, but the accessibility with some of these career sites is not really where it should be. Is that something that you’re hearing from the individuals you’re working with right now or has that not really been a huge issue?

Jeff Mittman:

No, it is something we’re very aware of. It’s something we work with organizations on making sure their systems, their websites… Even websites are not accessible in a lot of cases for screen readers. So working with organizations to ensure that that initial, if I’m putting in a job application on a site that’s not accessible to somebody’s blind or visually impaired, I’m not going to be very successful myself. So that is a barrier and there’s been a significant improvement I’d say over the years. But I think a lot of times when it comes to accessibility, it’s a secondary thought or an add-on afterwards. And what we find is when you have an organization who takes that into account at the inception of the system or a website, it’s much, much easier to break that barrier down. And then quite frankly, somebody who’s not visually impaired wouldn’t know the difference anyway.

Shannon Offord:

Do you think that sometimes an individual who goes out and recognizes that that site isn’t accessible, do you think that deters them for wanting to work for that employer because they haven’t taken the steps to make sure that their site’s accessible?

Jeff Mittman:

No, absolutely. I believe I think it is a deterrent for somebody if they go to a website and it’s not accessible, so what exactly do you do? Unless you have the wherewithal to contact the organization and highlight that? Because in a lot of cases they just simply don’t know, especially when you’re talking about a smaller organization or a small business, they may just not even be aware that it’s not accessible. So I think it is a barrier. As I said, if I can’t find information on your website, what good is that website to me? So it can be a barrier, absolutely.

Brandon Wells:

And Shannon, I think that’s why outreach is so important as well. Just today, a couple of hours ago I was speaking to a group that joined us for lunch at Enterprises and it was a really simple request. They wanted to send a thank you card to their tour guide who is blind, and it just dawned on them that, wait a second, how do I send a thank you to them if they’re blind? So it really is just having the conversations sometimes and that came at the tail end of us speaking about how sometimes the accommodations necessary at the workplace aren’t moving mountains. It’s just consideration and thought has to go into the process, and then things tend to start falling into place once you put yourself in a position to be successful that way.

Shannon Offord:

Awesome. Thank you. So there’s obviously a lot of myths out there circling around people who are blind or have visual impairments. I’m going to speak or I’m going to actually mention a few of those. And like I said, these are myths. So if you can dispel and talk about these as we go through this, that would be awesome. So one of the myths out there are people who are blind can’t live independently. I mean, I know that’s not correct and most of us know that’s not correct, but can you just talk a little bit about that and ways that BOSMA works to make sure that individuals who are blind can in fact live independently?

Brandon Wells:

I was going to say from my vantage point as a sighted person, I can only go off what I see every day here in our center and speaking to our clients. And I can tell you, I just have to walk about 15 feet down the hall to see people doing tasks independently as a blind or visually impaired person that I think the average person doesn’t work in an industry wouldn’t think they’d be able to do. Everything from cooking a family meal, to doing woodworking, to navigating their space as a blind or visually impaired person. If they get the treatment, if they get the rehabilitation services they need, they can absolutely live fully independently and it really is a sight to see.

Shannon Offord:

Thank you. Another myth, people who are blind can’t use most technology.

Jeff Mittman:

I would say in that case, technology is the great equalizer. So I’m sitting here on a computer taking part in this podcast and this conversation using technology and as I said, the proper software, screen reader reading the screen to you, or magnification software, whatever your vision level requires, those are things that allow people to use the technology and actually allow people to have access to the outside world. Something as simple as a cell phone, the technology embedded in every cell phone made on earth today really allows for that independence and that access to the outside world. So I don’t know that I know very many at all people who are blind or visually impaired who don’t use technology because that’s what gives them the actual access. So that’s just straight up a myth. I think we go back to the point that people just don’t know what they don’t know.

Shannon Offord:

Another myth that we hear, and we see this a lot, is that most of us who are sighted individuals think that people who are blind, that they all can, or are all proficient in braille. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Brandon Wells:

Well, I think that our center does such a good job providing really a custom experience for each client. And Jeff can probably speak a little more eloquently about this than me, but I can tell you what I witness every day is training that’s set up for that person to be successful. I know for some that includes braille, for some it might not. For some, they may need the assistance of a dog that’s been specially trained, others may not. It really is all about determining what the need is for that individual in their space and in their life as an independent person.

Jeff Mittman:

No, absolutely. Not everybody reads braille. I know there’s a lot of organizations that think they should, but I think it’s up to the individual. What are their needs? What are their desires at that point? With the advancement in technology, I now have cell phones that’ll read a document to me. I have a closed circuit television, that will actually read the document to me. So I think it’s up to the individual. I think braille is a great thing. Some people learn it, some people don’t, but technology also assists them. And I would call the literacy of somebody who can’t read standard print.

Shannon Offord:

I think we all agree that individuals who are blind can be great employees, we hear a lot about cost of accommodations. Can you talk a little bit about some of the accommodations that are available that are out there that can help individuals with blindness be productive employees and really fit well into the organizations?

Brandon Wells:

Well, I was just walking the hallway and I walked past a training session for those working with JAWS, which is the screen reading system that essentially will allow you to use the computer like anybody else would in the workplace. And it’s your eyes on the computer screen essentially. And it’s amazing to watch in action how quickly people can pick up some of these tools with the proper instruction. It really is a wonderful time to be alive in terms of technology. And I think that comes into play a pretty quickly when you’re talking about those that have visual impairments or any other disabilities that they need technology for in the workplace.

Jeff Mittman:

Yeah, it’s accommodations in the workplace are sometimes very, very simple. It could be computer software, simply as the only thing you need. It could be a signature guide to sign documents with. It could be in production, it could be the modification, slight modification of the height of a table or a magnifier. So a lot of the accommodations are very, very simple and very, very cheap. I know I’ve seen a study recently that the vast, vast majority of accommodations cost less than $300 for somebody with a visual impairment, so it’s not an overly expensive thing. In many cases, there’s no cost at all. So again, that just goes back to can we break down those barriers by sharing and educating and spreading the word about that because it’s not nearly as difficult as people believe it is to accommodate somebody who’s blind or visually impaired.

Shannon Offord:

So I want to go back to the 70% unemployment rate. If you were going to talk to employers right now, and obviously you are because there are a lot of employers who are listening to this podcast, what would you tell them about ways or things that they should be doing to one, attract individuals who are blind, and two, what things they can do as an organization to prepare themselves to really accommodate individuals with blindness and really prepare them themselves to make those individuals successful in their organizations?

Brandon Wells:

Well, I’m going to make a shameless plug here and go first, Jeff, if you don’t mind. Again, I mentioned it earlier, but on October 26th, we were having a reverse job fair. And I would say first and foremost, for employers who are interested in learning how they can help employ folks that are blind or originally impaired that are job seekers, is come on down to BOSMA. If you come to that reverse job fair, it’s really the step one that will allow you to get your foot in the door and realize pretty quickly in that interview process that two, three minutes in, you’re just talking about work. You’re talking about qualifications that person has, what they can bring to your organization. The visual impairment during that interview actually ends up kind of going out of your mind because you’re really going to be enthralled with how that person can positively impact your organization.

And then secondly, when you get back to the logistics of it, know that we’re here to help. We have a whole team of people whose job it is to work with our employers and educate them on the technology. And like Jeff said, the really minor accommodations that don’t cost a lot of money or take a lot of time that they can provide to who is the best candidate to do the job that just happens to be blind or visually impaired. It all starts here. And if people attend events like that, we can definitely help them find some incredible Hoosiers in their workplace.

Jeff Mittman:

Absolutely, Brandon, I’ll tell you one other thing is just the open conversation, that’s with the employer, the employee BOSMA, other organizations that assist people with blind or visually impaired. Just the open discussion, all the answers could be found there. And it’s just really important that we talk about diversity and inclusion and disabilities are included in both of those. So we need to ensure we’re not overlooking that and we’re actually being proactive and seeking out those individuals as I encourage them to seek employers out as well. So I think it’s the open conversation and being proactive about it.

Shannon Offord:

Well, thank you very much for those answers. We’re going to have a little fun, real quick before we finish, this is something we do with all of our guests. It’s a rapid fire question section. We’d just like to have a little fun with this, and I’ll ask just a couple of questions and just feel free to answer it as you see fit. So, favorite fast food restaurant?

Jeff Mittman:

Wendy’s.

Brandon Wells:

Well, I’m a California boy and I can’t get it here, but I’m going to say In-N-Out Burger. I miss it every day.

Shannon Offord:

You know what? I’m a fan of both of those places. So are you an early bird or a night owl?

Jeff Mittman:

Early bird.

Brandon Wells:

And I’m definitely more of a night owl.

Shannon Offord:

Well, all right. This may be a tough one. It would be for me. I can’t remember the last time I’ve actually read a book. I read a lot of contracts, but not a lot of books. Favorite book you’ve read?

Jeff Mittman:

Life by Keith Richards.

Brandon Wells:

Oh, that’s a good one. I’m going to go way back to when I was a kid. There’s a book called The Human Comedy by William Saroyan, who is an author from my hometown of Fresno, California. And it’s just, it’s something I’ve always come back and I’ve read a couple of times since.

Shannon Offord:

I’m going to throw this in and I’m not sure that you guys will have a good answer for this, but I’m from Ohio, so football’s very important to us in Ohio. Ohio State, or Michigan?

Jeff Mittman:

Michigan.

Shannon Offord:

Oh! That’s like a dagger.

Jeff Mittman:

Cut me out of the podcast for good.

Brandon Wells:

Yeah. I hate to break it to you there, Shannon, but one of the things I picked up marrying a Hoosier was all things Ohio State are pretty off limits. So I’m going to say Michigan for sure.

Shannon Offord:

Oh gosh. Well, that ends the podcast. No, I’m just kidding. All right, last question. Best career advice you’ve ever received?

Jeff Mittman:

I would say in the Army, I had a leader tell me it’s better to be disciplined than to be motivated.

Shannon Offord:

There’s some truth to that.

Brandon Wells:

Early in my career, I carpooled with a gentleman who was about 20 years older than me, and he told me one morning, I can’t even remember the context of it, but he said, “You can learn something from everybody.” And I think he meant good or bad. If you’re open to it in the workplace, you can always learn something from those around you and just be mindful of that.

Shannon Offord:

Another really good one. And I think that a lot of our listeners have learned a lot from both of you, Jeff and Brandon, joining us today. So thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure gaining your insights and just being able to share some time with you and learn more about BOSMA and the work that you’re doing with Hoosiers with low vision or blindness here in our state. I’m still a little upset about the Michigan comment, but we’ll live with it. But thank you both for joining us. I definitely appreciate that. If employers or if the people out there listening to our podcast want to donate to the mission, what would be the easiest way for them to do that?

Brandon Wells:

The best way to do that would be to visit our website. One click away, it’s BOSMA, that’s BOSMA.org/foundation and that Donate Here button will follow you around the page. So click on that and all donations are welcome. And I will say, and thank you for saying that, Shannon, right now we are in the middle of a campaign, so any unrestricted gift you give to the foundation via that website will be matched dollar for dollar until we reach a million dollars. So double your impact and you can give today and do so.

Shannon Offord:

Well, thanks for that, Brandon and everyone out there, BOSMA’s a great organization doing some great work, so if you feel inclined to donate, please, please do so. So thanks again, Jeff and Brandon, and hope you guys have a good rest of your day.

Jeff Mittman:

All right, thank you.

Brandon Wells:

Thank you, Shannon.

Candee Chambers:

Thank you for tuning in for another episode of the DE Talk Podcast. Stay connected with DirectEmployers on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn and subscribe to our emails by visiting DirectEmployers.org/subscribe to receive notifications of new episodes each month.