Season 7 • Bonus Episode

How can disability inclusion fuel talent acquisition, employee retention, and long-term organizational growth? In this episode, disability strategist Bob Ludke shares actionable insights for HR leaders, talent acquisition professionals, and HR executives seeking to transform workplace culture and build competitive advantage through inclusion. Bob explores how psychological safety and inclusive leadership unlock innovation and strengthen employee engagement. Drawing from case studies featuring market leaders, he illustrates how organizations are embedding disability inclusion into talent pipeline development, reshaping the employee value proposition, and driving measurable ROI in workforce optimization.

About DE Talk

The DE Talk monthly podcast features honest and open dialogue between powerhouse industry experts on a variety of HR topics ranging from OFCCP compliance advice to emerging recruitment marketing trends, equal employment opportunity initiatives, and insightful solutions that help infuse new life into your HR strategies.

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Transcript

DirectEmployers (00:00):

Get ready. The DE Talk podcast starts now, insightful conversations and dialogue, helping you put the human factor back in HR.

Michelle Krefft (00:08):

Welcome to the DE Talk podcast. I’m Michelle Krefft, DirectEmployers Community and Disability Outreach Specialist. Today we’re diving into an important and timely conversation around disability inclusion in the workplace. I’m so excited to welcome Bob Ludke, co-founder of Value Inclusion and author of the new book, Case Studies and Disability Driven Innovation, A Better Future Through An Inclusive Economy, as today’s guest, with a background in public policy advising leaders in the C-suite and connecting disability employment to organizational objectives, Bob helps organizations from corporations to nonprofits understand how disability inclusion is a powerful driver of innovation, employee engagement, and long-term business success. Welcome, Bob.

(01:05):

So we’ve known each other a long time, but can you tell the listeners a little bit about your background?

Bob Ludke (01:12):

Sure. Well, and thank you, Michelle, for this wonderful opportunity. I’m really excited to have this conversation today, but maybe I’ll give a bit of a longer version of my background because I think it’ll put some of the conversation that we’ll have in context.

Michelle Krefft (01:28):

I love It.

Bob Ludke (01:29):

I was born with a disability. I was born with a dislocated right hip, and I don’t know if those who are listening and watching to this remember Forrest Gump, but in the opening scenes, you see him forres with the braces between his legs, and that’s exactly what I had. And it wasn’t this debilitating disability by any stretch, but it definitely has impacted me my whole life and I’ve always had mobility limitations in my right leg, my right hip and back. And I’ve been fortunate that I’ve been able to work through some of that, but it’s something that’s always there. And fast forward to the start of my career, and I was really, really fortunate to have my first real job being a summer intern for Senator Tom Harkin, who as many of us know as the author at the Americans with Disabilities Act. And not only did I get to intern for Tom, but by virtue being the first intern in the office that summer, I got to intern on the Subcommittee for Disability Policy.

(02:33):

And that was really where the bulk of the Americans with Disabilities Act was written. And so I was there for the implementation phase, and it was really, really fascinating to see the advocacy side of all things disability because the ADA is this incredibly complex bill and you had to figure out how to work. And so it was just this amazing first experience into public policy. And a few years later, I had the opportunity to work for Tom on a senate staff, not on disability issues, but when you work for Tom, disability is woven into a lot of what you do. And then fast forward a number of years later, I was doing a lot of consulting work around responsible business practices, sustainable investing practices, and during the pandemic, when there was a lot of belief that that mindset around responsible investing, new ways to make businesses more responsible and accountable to society were happening, especially after the murder of George Floyd, I realized that disability and the value proposition of disability, employment and disability inclusion were completely left out of those conversations.

(03:51):

Those businesses were trying to rethink how they could better engage in society in a way that not only benefited society but benefited them. They were talking about a lot of important things, more diversity, better engagement with audiences and stakeholders all across the society, really, not just the U.S. but again, the disability community was not really part of those conversations. Then went to the Harkin Institute, which Tom had founded when he retired from the Senate, and it’s located at Drake University in Des Moines and proposed a research paper looking to tie all of that together, that effective business and responsible business and market opportunity go hand in hand with creating a diverse workforce and really embracing the mindset of competitive integrated employment for persons with disabilities. For the last five years, I’ve had been on this wonderful journey, and again, creating that connection between the value proposition of disability employment and the value proposition that it brings to organizations and companies of all kinds, and in particular around innovation, market opportunity, engaging new customers and so on.

Michelle Krefft (05:10):

Thank you so much for sharing your story, Bob, how incredible. And for all the advocacy work you do and bringing people with disabilities to the table, I can’t say thank you enough. Can you talk a little bit about case studies in disability driven innovation? Why did you write it and what are some of the things you learned along your journey?

Bob Ludke (05:34):

So I published case studies and disability driven innovation earlier this year. I believe it came out in late February. And it is really a collection of case studies of these amazing innovators and entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, people doing innovative things within organizations that have come across in these last five years. And this, again, my own journey around disability, employment and disability innovation. And on one hand I had again, amazing interactions with these people who are just innovating their way through life and in that journey, making things around them better, making people’s lives easier. And on the other hand, I am engaging with organizational leaders, particularly leaders in the private sector. And time and time again was hearing the same thing when asked about disability. Employment was always told, it’s too hard. We don’t know where to start. What could we do? Maybe there’s risks or lawsuits.

(06:38):

I really need to shy away from that. And so the book is hopefully what it tries to be is a business book, a book about entrepreneurship and business strategy and business and leadership to show how you can integrate persons with disabilities into organizations large and small, how you can create a cultural mindset in those organizations to really embrace the innovative and creative drive that most people with disabilities have. And it then uses the case studies to show that while this tasks and this journey isn’t necessarily easy, it can be done. There are a lot of lessons learned and a lot of tangible steps taken by others that can be replicated time and time again across organizations. It also, my hope is that any number of the case studies in the book are truly inspirational and put a little bit of oomph behind someone’s desire to really provide the mentorship, the collaboration with persons with disabilities to scale their ideas into things that can make society better, make all of our lives better.

Michelle Krefft (07:57):

You were just talking about how it can be done and how it makes our lives better, but I think another thing is it really makes employment better for everybody when we’re inclusive and we include people with disabilities who are really innovative. Your book really is a driver of disability, innovation and growth. Can you maybe share one case study from your research that you think will resonate with our employers who are heavily regulated industries like government contracting?

Bob Ludke (08:34):

I think one of the interesting case studies in the book, and frankly one of the more compelling case studies in the book was that of Walmart. And for the past 18 months or so, Walmart has instituted what it calls our sensory friendly hours. So from eight to 10:00 AM in every one of its stores in the us, Walmart creates a sensory friendly experience for not only its guests, its customers, but also it turns out its employees. The employees really appreciate the sensory friendly hours. And so what the sensory friendly hours are is those two hours when Walmart turns down the volume on all the TVs, the stereos turns down, the lights in the stores, turns off most of the TVs like in the electronics section, and really, really works hard to dial back the sensory intensity of its stores. And so what started out as something where Walmart is just trying to do good, create a few moments in a day where people who are affected and impacted by sensory intense experiences, it found that it’s actually driving all kinds of customer engagement, not just people who are affected by have the sharp reactions to sensory intense experiences, but its employees now love these hours too, because it’s more relaxed.

(10:15):

It’s just everything is dialed back a little bit. And so it’s moved from something of Walmart just trying to do good and be nice to Walmart actually seeing a very clear competitive advantage driving increased store revenue through these hours. That started with a mindset of creating a welcoming experience to persons with disabilities and now transforming it into a welcoming experience for customers of all kinds. And so that shows right there the value proposition of creating an experience or creating a workplace that’s accessible and open to all. And when you create something that’s welcoming, that’s open for everyone, guess what? Everyone then uses it because we all benefit from it. I mean, how many times have any of us gone into a store and come out and just feel like we’ve gone through the ringer,

Michelle Krefft (11:18):

Right?

Bob Ludke (11:18):

Right. You’re exhausted, then you don’t really want to do that again. So you may now avoid that store, but what if you go to a store and it’s like, Hey, I was pretty calm. That was relaxing. I could just take care of what I needed to do and I’m done and I don’t feel exhausted. Of course you’re going to be coming back to that. It makes perfect sense. So those experiences, creating those types of environments that are welcoming to all people is something that disability driven innovation I think excels at. And that’s why I firmly believe, it’s the one kind of innovation that has shown time and time again to benefit everyone and to create value for everyone regardless of disability. It creates value for everyone.

Michelle Krefft (12:06):

Thank you for that example. That was incredible. And you’re absolutely right. You mentioned earlier how we hear from businesses maybe that don’t know where to start, or they don’t know how to integrate people with disabilities or, I mean, we’ve heard lots of excuses in the past, right? As we’ve worked with businesses, and I love that you have examples from large corporations to small little business and how we can make an impact despite the size. So thank you for sharing that example, Bob. Many of our members are federal contractors navigating the OFCCP requirements under section 503 of the Rehabilitation Act. From your perspective, why should employers look at disability inclusion as more than just the compliance checkbox and instead as a pathway to innovation and value creation?

Bob Ludke (13:06):

So let me answer that question on a couple different levels. Maybe on the most basic fundamental level, the fact of the matter is every one of your members has approximately, we’ll just say 20% of its employees identifying as disabled. Now, they may not publicly identify, they may not feel comfortable disclosing their disability, but the fact of the matter is they are coming to work every day, either in person or virtually, however they engage in work with the disability somewhere. I always ask CEOs this question, I said, what would you rather have an employee coming to work feeling empowered to bring their best, most authentic self to work every day, or someone that is, instead of bringing their best, most authentic self to work every day, spending time and energy hiding and working around their disability, and therefore not being as productive as they could be? If you’re a CEO, you better not. You

DirectEmployers (14:13):

Want the productivity, right?

Bob Ludke (14:14):

You better not agree with this second option because if you do, it’s probably time to look for a different career.

DirectEmployers (14:22):

Or you’re going to lose all your staff.

Bob Ludke (14:25):

And so look, it is a fact, right? It is a fact that virtually everyone, because disability is intersectional, is going to encounter disability in their lifetime. And you can be born into it. You could be temporary, like you fall off a bike, you break your arm, guess what? You have a disability. It’s maybe a temporary disability, but it’s a disability. Or unless we all find the fountain of youth, we’re all aging into disability, right? Lack of mobility and lack of cognitive skills. So acknowledge that, accept that, and embrace that and use it to your advantage. And the best way for a leader to create the space for people to bring their best, most authentic selves to the office every day is by just start by talking about disability. Maybe you don’t even have to acknowledge if you have a disability. I am in no way saying that everyone needs to stand up on a table and proclaim a disability.

(15:26):

It’s an entirely personal choice. Do it as you see fit. But just start talking about how you as a leader recognize the value proposition of disability, how you understand that all of us have a connection to disability and how your organization appreciates that, welcomes that, and wants to work with its team on utilizing all of the different values that persons with disabilities bring to the table. And instead of getting caught up in regulations and what’s the administration going to do now and this and that, just control what you can control and what you can best control is how your organization sets up its cultural mindset around disability. And the best starting place is just to start talking about it. Because the more you talk about it in an authentic way, the more that people start to feel comfortable talking about their disability, their connection to disability, and it just moves the ball forward. And suddenly you find that the innovation goes up, the culture becomes stronger, teams become more resilient, and it just happens organically, but it requires ongoing authentic leadership, not just one day saying something. It’s day after day of giving people the space to be their best selves.

Michelle Krefft (16:56):

Yes. I love that. Thank you. And I’m sure a lot of businesses are going to see that long-term retention because if their employees are, they’re comfortable at work, they can be themselves like you talked about.

Bob Ludke (17:13):

Yeah, and I think the other point to make here is I’ve talking any number of executive recruiters, and I think it was a couple years ago, McKinsey study came out and it said right now, and these recruiters kind of echo this, that employment hiring people is a zero sum game because every organization is chasing the same talent time and time again. So it’s just this constant churn of people job hopping and just moving from company A to company B, and then well, guess what? They get hired back at company A again. So instead of getting caught up in that churn, instead of wasting so much time and energy in that churn, A, find new sources of talent, new pipelines of talent, and there’s a lot of people with disabilities who are more than willing to work and put in an honest days effort, or B, create a better, more resilient culture where your employees don’t want to go to company B, they want to stay at company A, and you don’t have to waste the time and resources trying to either keep ’em there or get ’em back when you need another job vacancy filled.

Michelle Krefft (18:23):

Exactly. And I know a lot of people who would prefer to be at a company that’s actually welcoming of all employees than to chase a higher pay. I mean, we all want to be someplace where we belong, right?

Bob Ludke (18:40):

Yeah.

Michelle Krefft (18:42):

So federal contractors often struggle to connect with qualified candidates with disabilities. What are some strategies that you’ve seen that actually move the needle in building a sustainable disability talent pipeline?

Bob Ludke (18:59):

Well, the first is exactly what we just talked about, which is really making sure your own house is in order, shall we say. And again, just taking the time to ensure that your team is bringing their best self to work. There are a couple other recommendations for organizations when they’re, should we just say looking externally for talent? And the first and frankly most fundamental is making sure that your hiring process is actually accessible. So the website where you list your job postings, is it accessible to people who are blind and low vision? Have you scrubbed your interview questions to make sure that you are not inadvertently screening out people by the type of questions you ask that may cause them to think, I don’t think I have a place at that organization given what I was just asked. And is your recruiting team comfortable, capable, and motivated to think about hiring differently? And sometimes that means not getting overly caught up in the minutia of a job description,

(20:13):

And instead really thinking about how to attract the best people for a position or a role or a set of responsibilities and making sure that the job description actually fits their skillset rather than trying to shoehorn someone into frankly, a cookie cutter, overly wordy, overly complicated job description. So that’s step two of making sure your own house is in order. Have someone come in from the outside and work with you to, let’s just say audit, for lack of a better phrase, your hiring process. And we’ve seen a time, and again, in all kinds of organizations that are really good organizations, these are really mission driven. They have great teams, but some of the questions they ask in the hiring process, if you have a disability, you might hear those questions or see those questions and think, I’m not sure that’s a great fit for me.

(21:16):

And if you do take the job and they do get the job, you kind of go in with a little bit of a hesitation, and that’s not a great way to start. And then the other recommendation I’d make and much more external is really creating a network of organizations in your community or across the US or world, however you recruit talent, but are adept at and focused on bringing in talent that identifies disabled. And so maybe that is the vocational rehabilitation system. Maybe that’s community organizations that provide mentoring and support to job seekers and candidates with disabilities who are seeking full-time employment, or maybe that’s really empowering your employee resource groups or whatever you may call them, to go out and visit chambers of Commerce and going to job fairs with a mindset of really attracting a diverse set of people that have a wide range of lived experiences in their background. And so I find it to be very, very hollow when I see organizations proclaim that they are committed to hiring in particular disabled talent, and they have no relationships in the communities in which they serve that provides the pipeline for that talent. To me, that’s just words on a page.

(22:48):

That means that they’re actually not following through on whatever that proclamation is. They just put it out there because it looks or sounds good, but they haven’t

Michelle Krefft (22:57):

Kind of checking that box like we talked about earlier.

Bob Ludke (22:59):

They’re checking the box, but they’re not actually engaging with people, with organizations that can provide that talent to them and help them be better at hiring and supporting people with disabilities in their employment.

Michelle Krefft (23:16):

You were talking earlier, and it kind of made me think about sometimes when people might see a person with a specific disability, they automatically make assumptions about what that person might be able to do or might not be able to do. And really the importance of treating each person as a person and looking at them as a person and not their disability. And I loved that you brought up vocational rehabilitation because of course that’s where my passion lies as well. And when I did work for vocational rehabilitation, a lot of times when we met with our job seekers with disabilities looking for employment, and the first thing they did was look at the website like you mentioned, to make sure that if pictures of people with disabilities were on there, it was authentic and not something taken off the internet. And that, like you mentioned, it was accessible. And I know there’s a lot of free websites you can even go to put your website into, make sure it’s accessible. And we talked a little bit about this, the job description, sometimes they would look at it and not even apply because maybe they didn’t think they could meet one of the requirements that wasn’t even really a requirement of the job.

Bob Ludke (24:35):

Right?

(24:36):

And I’ve asked this of both recruiters as well as people who manage supply chains of companies, who their job is to go out and find vendors for their supply chain. And it’s a similar mindset. Every company makes commitments about creating a diverse supply chain, but have you really taken the steps to make sure that your vendor application process or the job descriptions are accessible? And so I ask, have you as a person actually sat down and gone through your own RFP process? Did you ever get to a point in that where you just wanted to give up? It’s just say, I’m going to go find a different company. And so I know compliance is important, and I know obviously you have to follow the law and all that, but I think we’ve gotten to the point where some of these processes have gotten overly complex inadvertently, but they’ve gotten overly complex, and as a result, they’re inaccessible. And it doesn’t have to be bad website or poor language to create an inaccessible process, an overly burdensome process is also inaccessible.

Michelle Krefft (25:53):

Yes.

Bob Ludke (25:53):

And so I just, in the past few months in particular, I’ve really started challenging organizations to just take a step back and as you’re thinking about diversifying your workforce or diversifying your supply chain, have someone go through the process to make sure that that process is accessible in every way. And again, it’s not creating undue burdens on people. It’s designed to get to a win rather than just meet every single little requirement that you could possibly think of because you’re screening out some of your really interesting potential if you’re doing that.

Michelle Krefft (26:34):

And I would say additionally, I don’t identify as a person with a disability, but if I had to jump through all of those hoops, I would probably stop. So you’re screening out even more people,

Bob Ludke (26:47):

Right? Exactly. Exactly. And so it just makes no sense, and again, I’m not discounting the rationale, but what I am starting to more and more raise concerns about is if you actually stopped and taken a few minutes and actually gone through the process as a person to make sure that it’s, again, it’s accessible in every way.

Michelle Krefft (27:14):

For sure. So Bob, where do you see employers missing the mark? And I know we’ve really talked about this talked, but when it comes to outreach and partnerships, especially with community-based organizations and vocational rehabilitation programs or programs like the Ticket to Work.

Bob Ludke (27:34):

I hate to sound overly negative, but I think it just, in too many cases, the organizations just are not taking the fundamental steps to begin that outreach, not thinking about how they want to appear at job fairs. If you go to a job fair and you are not bringing anyone who identifies as disabled to represent your organization, no one with a disability is going to be terribly intrigued by your company. It’s just, again, I think it’s this fear of making a mistake that is triggering this hesitancy to not be proactive enough in reaching out to all these organizations that again, provide this pipeline of talent and frankly, are desperate for those kinds of connections with employers.

(28:25):

And I strongly suspect that as you build those relationships, you’re going to meet people in those organizations who will do everything they can to ensure it’s a successful partnership and that the talent pipeline really delivers for the company. Because these organizations that are working with the people who identify as disabled, I mean, they’re facing these overwhelming caseloads. They have more people in their pipeline then they can service. And so the more that they can engage with employers with quality employers, the better they are. So it really is a win-win. And I really think that in that situation, you’ll find those, should we just say talent pipelines, really, really willing to collaborate to create a successful partnership with the employer?

Michelle Krefft (29:13):

Yes. And I am thinking to our unconscious biases and how sometimes when I was at vocational rehabilitation, a business might say, well, we only hire people with a bachelor’s degree. Well, guess what? People with disabilities have bachelor’s degrees, people with disabilities have master’s degrees, have PhDs, and so maybe even getting over some of those

Bob Ludke (29:41):

Yeah, I mean, yes, and I will say this and kind of in defense of employers, which is that many of the people working in the voc rehab system, working in some of these other, we’ll just call ’em community based organizations, don’t always have a deep experience in the private sector. So they aren’t necessarily experts in how private sector employment works, how hiring processes work, what mentorship looks like and engages in day in, day out in a company. So there very much needs to be a meeting in the middle, and everyone has a bit to learn. So it’s really an opportunity for the employers to engage with these provider organizations about this is what we really need. This is how the process works from our end, help us improve our process and teach us how we can be better. And then it’s incumbent upon those providers to then adapt to what frankly the private sector is like. And I can’t say that either side is great at that, and the real loser in all this are the people who are seeking jobs.

Michelle Krefft (30:52):

You’re a hundred percent correct.

Bob Ludke (30:53):

So both sides need to do a better job of understanding how each of them engages with talent in the hiring process.

Michelle Krefft (31:03):

Bob, recently you and I met with our human resources, a vice president here at DirectEmployers and really talked about psychological safety in the workplace. Could you expand on that?

Bob Ludke (31:17):

Yeah, so I had have to say probably my biggest learning in writing the book and researching case studies and disability driven innovation was about the concept of psychological safety. And without a doubt, that is the most crucial ingredient to creating a more innovative, collaborative, cohesive culture. And so what psychological safety is, it’s a kind of cultural mindset that allows people to, as I’ve said earlier, bring their best, most authentic selves to work every day. It’s where you feel comfortable sharing ideas. It’s where you feel comfortable taking feedback. It’s where you feel comfortable giving constructive feedback and that people don’t feel that they’re at risk, that they’re being judged, putting their future in jeopardy in the organization by sharing ideas or giving constructive feedback. That’s really, again, that most crucial ingredient to coming up with new innovative ideas or approaches of doing business. It could be a very junior person walking into a senior executive office and saying, Hey, I had an idea of how we could do system X better or launch product Y better.

(32:32):

And for that person to the senior executive say, Hey, okay, great idea. Thank you for bringing it here. Let me give you some feedback on that, and then maybe we make this work or what have you. But it is not, I mean, there are certain things, it’s not right. It is not being nice for the sake of being nice. It is not just saying yes to make someone go away or make someone feel good. It is not holding back criticism on something, but it is doing that all in a way that is collaborative, constructive, and frankly an ongoing learning process for everyone. Because as I’ve said before, you can’t expect people to always be thinking outside the box. I mean, every company loves to say how we have a culture where people think outside the box. It’s great. You’re not going to think outside the box if you’re worried about getting put down for an idea that you have

Michelle Krefft (33:26):

A hundred percent,

Bob Ludke (33:28):

And I get asked all the time, someone that’s really a company that’s really perfect when it comes to psychological safety. There’s no such thing as perfection when it comes to psychological safety. It is at best a continuous process of improvement. We’re all human, right? There’s going to be days you snap at someone, right? There’s going to be days when

Michelle Krefft (33:49):

What I’ve never snapped at anyone!

Bob Ludke (33:51):

Nor have I ever, right?

Michelle Krefft (33:53):

Never!

Bob Ludke (33:53):

Never. It’s not this eternal state of perfection, but it is this constant commitment to creating something that allows people to again, express themselves constructively, think about new ways of doing things, give feedback to others, collaborate with others in a way that ideally moves the organization forward. And so it is a mindset, it’s a culture rather than this formulaic process. Okay, step one, step two, that’s not it. It’s about creating a mindset in an organization about how we are all going to collaborate to the benefit of all, to the benefit of the organization to move ourselves ahead.

Michelle Krefft (34:36):

I think we probably all at some point in our careers worked at a place where we didn’t feel comfortable bringing up ideas, fear of retaliation or exclusion, and having a work environment where, like you said, you can be your authentic self, I don’t think that you would never want to leave that environment.

Bob Ludke (34:59):

Well, there’s that. And again, going back to a question you’d ask of a CEO, what kind of organization do you want to run where people are deliberately withholding good ideas because they’re fearful of what might happen versus an organization where people are willing and eager to collaborate to improve things because they feel comfortable sharing and engaging with their colleagues. Again, if you’re not choosing option two, being a CEO is probably not your calling in life.

Michelle Krefft (35:29):

Well, I choose option two there.

Bob Ludke (35:31):

Right? Granted, option two takes more work. It takes being on this every day and as a leader kind of instilling that mindset, and that just doesn’t happen one day in a blog post. It is day after day and you as a leader acting in a way that should be modeled by others.

Michelle Krefft (35:51):

Right.

Bob Ludke (35:52):

Again, that’s like do you want to sustain your growth in your market growth over time? Do you want to direct the best talent or do you want to just languish in third place? It’s your call.

Michelle Krefft (36:02):

Yeah, I love that, Bob. So when we met, we also talked about the reasonable accommodation process and maybe how sometimes people with disabilities might not ask for an accommodation because then they might not feel comfortable asking for other things like a raise. Could you talk a little bit about that reasonable accommodation request and some of your thoughts surrounding that?

Bob Ludke (36:32):

So should we just say the most fundamental legalistic way of looking at this, the Americans with Disabilities Act, does require employers to provide reasonable accommodations to their employees? So that’s like the formulaic legal approach to this. The other way to look at this, which is reality, which is we all use reasonable accommodations every single day for our job. If you have an executive assistant to help you manage your calls, your schedule, guess what? You have a reasonable accommodation. If you have left early to go to a doctor’s appointment or pick up a kid from football practice, you just took a reasonable accommodation. Maybe you have one of those fancy ergonomic chairs, guess what? Reasonable accommodation. So we all use it. Why do we use reasonable accommodation? Because it makes us better in our jobs. If you have dual screens at your desk, you do it because you’re a lot more productive.

(37:24):

If you can look at one screen and copy and paste over to the other screen or whatever, you’re happier if you can leave early to go get your kid from football practice so you’re a better, more efficient employee. The problem is that we’ve almost created two different classes of reasonable accommodations. There’s the people who expect that they have the right to get reasonable accommodations, and that’s the vast majority of people. Again, hey, I’m going to leave at four o’clock today to go pick up a kid. I’m showing up late tomorrow. I have a dentist appointment. Persons with disabilities too often feel or are given the impression, or in some cases even told that they have to go through this process, formal process by which to request a reasonable accommodation. The vast majority of those accommodations requests are inherently simple. The vast majority are under, I think it’s $400. And there’s examples like ergonomically designed keyboards, the ability to work from home when it’s raining and snowing outside because the public transit that day is going to be really tough. Or maybe it’s being able to just shut down for half an hour because staring at a computer screen just overloads the senses. So,

(38:42):

Those on their surface are seemingly simple requests. But too often, as I said before, persons with disabilities are either led to belief or actually put in a situation where a reasonable recommendation request becomes something that almost requires the company granting them a favor or an exception when it’s not, because it’s no different than it is for anyone else. And even worse in those situations when persons with disabilities are led to feel that way or believe that they then feel like they can’t advocate for themselves because they’ve burned all their matches asking for an ergonomic keyboard. So how can I ask for a performance review or how can I ask for a raise in that performance review? I’ve already asked for this keyboard and I had to fight tooth and nail to get that. What companies are slowly, slowly starting to find is that if they normalize the accommodations request process for everyone, it just works better for everyone. And it just becomes part of, again, creating a workforce that brings their best self to work.

(39:52):

Doesn’t have to create these ad hoc workarounds because computer keyboard doesn’t work very well for them. And instead just allows people to say, Hey, I need a keyboard. I can type a lot faster if I have a better design keyboard, or if I can just shut down for half an hour in the middle of the day and close my eyes, I’m good for the rest of the day. Let me go. I’ll rip it through the rest of the day. And so it’s like, let ’em have that half hour. So suddenly you have four and a half hours of high productivity and just being in that mindset where we all need a reasonable accommodation, so let’s normalize it and let’s not make anyone feel like they’re a burden, because that then goes back to psychological safety. Again. If these simple things of accessing your job become a burden, you are not going to feel comfortable participating in a brainstorming session. You’re not going to feel comfortable going to your supervisor saying, Hey, I think there’s a better way to do this. I think I can save us some money. It’s almost like the accessibility of the physical space allows for the accessibility of the psychological space, and those two are connected. And so really, really think about how that process works around the physical, because it does lead to the emotional,

Michelle Krefft (41:11):

You’re right. And I think about people who, we talked about a second screen, and maybe they would need a second screen as an accommodation, but they might not want to ask for it, and so they just purchase it themselves and provide their own accommodation when in reality, I can’t imagine life without a second screen or a third screen. And so a lot of times if we allow for that conversation to happen, we find that it’s going to improve productivity for all of our employees as we start to implement some of those innovative things that people with disabilities use as accommodations.

Bob Ludke (41:53):

And so, I mean, go back to you purchasing that second screen, right? It probably cost a hundred dollars, right? It wasn’t this massive investment, but there’s always going to be this little thing in the back of your head that just says, you know what? I have to go out and buy that thing. The company just announced record profits, like, why? I’m fine. It was a hundred bucks. I’m fine. I get it. If I had to do it, I’d do it again. But man, that just doesn’t sit with me. So again, you’re not bringing your best self to work over a hundred dollars, and that’s a really, really shortsighted mindset for any organization to be in.

Michelle Krefft (42:27):

I agree a hundred percent. So gosh, Bob, our conversation has been so amazing. I have a couple more questions if you don’t mind.

Bob Ludke (42:39):

Of course, I’ll be brief so we can get through ’em all.

Michelle Krefft (42:42):

I know now we can’t chat. What emerging trends in disability driven innovation should federal contractors be paying attention to in the next three to five years?

Bob Ludke (42:55):

Well, there’s always this conversation around all things AI, which obviously this has been said a million times before, right? But AI has huge potential and huge downside risks. I would say that the innovative potential of AI probably marries very well with the innovative skills of persons with disabilities. So there’s really, really intriguing potential there. I think AI has a long way to go to really understanding the nuance of disability, and I covered some of that in the book, but AI is inescapable. Just like disability is inescapable. So find a way to harness the best of AI and the harness the best of your talent of people, identify people with disabilities and see if you can make it a game changer for your organization instead of being scared of both and being intimidated by both. That’s probably the worst thing you can do.

Michelle Krefft (43:52):

Yeah. Thanks for that. Great advice. So if you could give one call to action to our employer members something they could start tomorrow to strengthen their disability inclusion strategy, what would it be? I feel like I know what you’re going to say now. Let me hear what you are going to say.

Bob Ludke (44:10):

What am I going to say? What am I going to say? So let’s see how psychologically safe this conversation has become.

Michelle Krefft (44:18):

Start with being an authentic leader and psychological safety in the workplace.

Bob Ludke (44:24):

Ding, ding, ding.

Michelle Krefft (44:25):

I was right.

Bob Ludke (44:26):

You were right, Michelle. And I’m not just saying yes to make you feel good and just saying yes to create false praise. But again, it just starts with giving disability a space and how do you give it a space, talk about it, talk about it in a comfortable, authentic, not Pollyannish way. And once you start talking about it, then it starts to imbue itself in the culture. You’ll find employees who might not otherwise feel comfortable talking about or disclosing their disability now, feel comfortable doing that again, the reason for doing that is not just because you want every employee to either disclose or not disclose the disability is because doing so allows them to bring their best selves to work, their most productive selves to work, which should be the mission of every organization. So talk about it, create space for it, and create a culture that embraces it the best places to start. And also know that all of those are things entirely within your control. Government regulations don’t impact that changes in market. Don’t impact that changes in consumer buying patterns don’t impact that. You control how your culture works. So create the best possible culture you can by being a real leader, willing to talk about the wonderful outcomes that come from all the different lived experiences that we have.

Michelle Krefft (45:52):

Thank you, Bob. I always love our conversations. I wish I got to talk to you more than I do.

Bob Ludke (46:01):

We do pretty good. We do pretty good.

Michelle Krefft (46:02):

We do pretty good. You’re always my go-to subject matter expert, and I am so glad that our members got to hear from you today as well. Thank you for talking about disability inclusion and reshaping the workforce, and really the bottom line for our federal contractors from building stronger talent pipelines to engaging managers in inclusive practices to connecting compliance with innovation, you remind us all that disability inclusion can and should be non-negotiable. For our listeners who’d like to learn more about your work, Bob, can you share your website and the best way to get in touch with you?

Bob Ludke (46:45):

Sure. My firm’s name is Value Inclusion, and our website is those two words, valueinclusion.com, and our website has all of our contact information on it. Otherwise, you can find me on LinkedIn, Robert Ludke, L-U-D-K-E, and I’m always happy to engage with folks on LinkedIn as well.

Michelle Krefft (47:08):

Thank you. And for all of our members, I am sure you find Bob just as amazing as I do, and I hope you all reach out to him because he’s an incredible resource. Thanks so much for your time today, Bob. Well,

Bob Ludke (47:21):

Thank you, Michelle. I really, really enjoyed this conversation, and I am confident that we helped move the ball forward when it comes to creating a more inclusive society. So thank you for the opportunity.

Michelle Krefft (47:33):

I think so too.

DirectEmployers (47:35):

Thank you for tuning in for another episode of the DE Talk podcast. Stay connected with DirectEmployers on Facebook, Twitter, and Linkedin, or subscribe to receive updates straight to your inbox by visiting DirectEmployers.org/Subscribe where you’ll receive notifications of new episodes, webinars, events, and more.