DE Talk | Recruit Rooster + RocketBuild: Together, We’ll Achieve New Heights

As many of you know, the work of Recruit Roosters by DirectEmployers would not be possible without stellar technology and development taking place behind the scenes, and in April, they announced the acquisition of RocketBuild. Today, Recruit Rooster COO, Heather Hoffman, is sitting down with Jason Ward of RocketBuild to discuss their work and position as Indy’s premier software and application development house—and most importantly, what this means for DirectEmployers and Recruit Rooster’s future tech and development.

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About DE Talk

For DirectEmployers, it’s all about valuable connections and meaningful conversations. This monthly podcast features honest and open dialogue between powerhouse industry experts on a variety of HR topics ranging from OFCCP compliance advice to emerging recruitment marketing trends, diversity and inclusion initiatives, and insightful solutions that help infuse new life into your HR strategies.

Hosted by Candee Chambers, Executive Director of DirectEmployers Association.

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Episode Transcript

Candee Chambers:
Welcome to the DE Talk Podcast, QuaranDEAM Edition. Season One wrapped with some amazing conversations, and with many of us working remotely, we wanted to keep the conversation going and really provide an additional outlet of education for our listeners. As many of you know, the work we do would not be possible without stellar technology and development taking place behind the scenes. And in April, we announced the acquisition of RocketBuild. Today Recruit Rooster‘s COO, Heather Hoffman, is sitting down with Jason Ward of RocketBuild to discuss their work and position as Indy’s premier software and application development house, and most importantly, what this means for DirectEmployers and Recruit Rooster’s future tech and development. So Heather, I’m going to turn it over to you and you can get started on the podcast.

Heather Hoffman:
Well, thank you for the introduction, Candee. 2020 has really been a roller coaster year for many organizations across the country. And the pandemic has really had an unprecedented impact on business activities and spending. Even amidst the pandemic, Recruit Rooster has been incredibly fortunate to experience growth in many ways, from bringing on new clients to a new business acquisition. And that’s what we’re going to talk a little bit about today.

On April 14th, 2020, Recruit Rooster excitedly announced that we had acquired, Indy’s premier custom software and application development house, RocketBuild. So now we have the Rockets and the Roosters. We’re continuing to add to our theme here. But on a serious note, we are very fortunate to find Recruit Rooster in growth stage. And part of that growth is really diving in and furthering the development and tools available as part of our recruitment marketing solutions that we offer. But it’s also diversifying our service offerings in the process. So, without further ado, I would like to welcome today’s guest, Jason Ward of RocketBuild. Welcome, Jason!

Jason Ward:
Thank you. Thank you, Candee and Heather both, for having me. This is exciting!

Heather Hoffman:
Absolutely! So this is my first time of hosting a podcast. I’ve been in your seat before, Jason, as an interviewee. So we’ll switch sides of the table here and we’ll see if this side is easier for me, but I’m sure you’ll probably pull me into some questions too.

Jason Ward:
Sounds good.

Heather Hoffman:
All right. Cool. So, typically the audience that we’re focused on is the HR audience. And so with RocketBuild, this is kind of an introduction for you into the HR world. I mean, obviously, you’ve worked hand-in-hand with Recruit Rooster for many months now, and we’re going to talk some more about that. But let’s get things kicked off here. All right. So your first question, Jason, let’s start by you giving us a little bit of a background on your career and how you became a leader at RocketBuild.

Jason Ward:
Yeah, sure thing. So I got to start by saying that first off, I’m the least interesting person at RocketBuild. So I don’t know why I’m here, but I’ll do my best. Yeah, so I’m a bit of a Luddite…It’s been a circuitous route that got me to running a technology company. I couldn’t have told you 20 years ago that I would be in this seat. But it’s been a lot of fun and I’m glad I’m here.

I started my career in government and nonprofits doing social service work back in about 2001 when I graduated from Purdue. I was a probation officer here in Indianapolis and worked with at-risk children and their families. And it was certainly different than what I’m doing now. After that, I spent a good deal of time working as a consultant for the state of Indiana. And then as a consultant at Indiana University. It hurts my heart to say I worked there since I’m a Purdue graduate.

Heather Hoffman:
Boiler up! We always got to work that in there.

Jason Ward:
That’s right. But that’s where the work was at. And that’s where the cool work was that I wanted to be doing. And it was right here in Indianapolis, so it worked out. I got to do some really neat research there and had a lot of fun, but the downturn hit, 2008. Felt a little bit like what we’re going through right now. And the first thing that the government does and universities do is cut contracts. So I was forced to sort of reassess my career path and focus a little bit on what I wanted to be doing rather than what my education told me I should be doing.

That’s when I backed into the agency world. I had made some contacts with some folks in the creative agency space here in Indianapolis. And I found a good mentor here at the agency called SmallBox. His name is Jeb Banner, a good friend of mine. And he really saw in me the aptitude, or at least the desire, to get into entrepreneurship, which was where his love was at. And so I was lucky to have someone that pushed me in a direction that was at first uncomfortable, but then really fit my skill set and my heart’s desire that I didn’t even know I had at the time.

Yeah so from there I have started a couple of technology companies. I am now, of course, running RocketBuild and doing a whole lot of other stuff on the side around technology. And it’s just weird, but I’m happy to be doing it.

Heather Hoffman:
Awesome. Well, we’re so glad to have you as part of the team. It’s been an awesome fit. So as you know many of our clients are focused on HR, and not necessarily development. So if you could share with us a little bit about the team, what you guys specialize in, and how that can translate into the HR world.

Jason Ward:
Yeah, for sure. So RocketBuild has worked with a few HR companies in the past. I can talk a little more about that later. HR is a very broad topic, obviously. I know Recruit Rooster has a very strong position and a couple of HR niches. DirectEmployers, obviously, is more than niche. They’re doing a whole lot of stuff for everyone around the country. We’ve only barely dipped our toe in the water, but our services have augmented HR processes in the past.

Specifically, we are doing work that is focused on helping innovators inside organizations, or who are starting companies, build technology solution. That takes the form, generally, of web applications or mobile applications. And occasionally the custom enterprise websites, something really large that has a robust content management system.

But our model has been to hire and train the most capable on-shore and in-house developers and technologists. So we don’t do any work with outsource partners that are overseas or anything like that. We have a couple of contractors we work with that are used to this remote work life and doing a bang up job working with us on occasion. But 99% of our work is done in-house by our on-shore developers. And we go out of our way to make sure that the folks that we’re hiring have experience and passion for building applications. That’s really our niche is finding the best talent and putting them on any kind of project and any kind of space. And now we’re trying to learn about HR and that’s great.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, absolutely. And you have quite the team. So phenomenal job at recruiting all of them. If you could give us a little backstory on RocketBuild. How long the business has been around and maybe share a fun story in the midst of all that.

Jason Ward:
Sure. Yeah, so RocketBuild was founded in 2014 by a couple of guys that had worked in the creative agency space and looked out at their competitors, and even their own organization, and said, “Look, we’re really doing a disservice to a lot of our clients by having overworked and or under-skilled developers on their own, on an island, trying to build these very complex solutions for these organizations that deserve better.” Creative agencies aren’t particularly adept at managing technologists. That’s just not their bread and butter. And that’s not a fault. That is just the truth of having different types of personalities and different types of experiences trying to manage the development team. So, a designer isn’t necessarily the best person to manage a developer and vice versa, to be honest.

So what we wanted to do, what our founders wanted to do, was find these technologists and these developers, put them in a separate agency, RocketBuild, in our case, and offer our services to these agencies that didn’t, or couldn’t, or were not able to provide that level of service to their clients. It was a great plan. Topher and Matt who founded the company found that the demand was high. They were working with a lot of big name agencies here early on, and those agencies were finding that they were getting a lot of cost savings because they didn’t need to support and maintain the salaries of developers year round when they maybe only needed them for two thirds, three quarters of the year on average.

So it was a win-win across the board. Yeah. So for our first three years, we followed that model. And when I came on and started to shift the business a little bit as president, we moved toward direct client work with clients, such as Recruit Rooster. And the work that we’ve been doing is less about augmenting creative services and more about building those enterprise level and product level applications that you see us doing now.

One of my favorite stories, isn’t really about clients or work. It’s really about the team. You’re going to find that a lot of the stories that we have are about the team and the culture and the talent that we have inside the organization because that’s our focus. The work is great, but that’s kind of secondary to having a good time, right?

So my favorite story is an Escape Room we did a couple of years ago to celebrate one of our big wins. We chose to do an art heist themed escape room challenge, and it was supposed to be one of the most difficult that they had to offer. And of course we solve technology problems all day long. So we’re like, “How hard can it be to figure out who sold some art, right?” So we decided we’re going to do the hardest one we could find. And it’s supposed to be a two hour event. And we ended up knocking it out of the park and beating it in 30 minutes.

Heather Hoffman:
Oh, wow. That’s awesome.

Jason Ward:
Yeah, it was a great time. The guys really came together. Guys and gals at the time really came together. You can see their brains working the same way it does when they’re working on a project.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Jason Ward:
It was just like, “Okay, here are the pieces. We’re putting them all together. Here are the challenges. Angie, you’re really great at this, can you help me solve this? And Caleb, you’re really good at this, can you help me solve this problem?” So they knocked it out of the park in under 30 minutes, which was astounding. I believe it was the record for that particular event. And the problem was we had set aside two hours at the end of the day to have fun. And we only took 30 minutes. So it turned into a little bit less of a party than we were hoping to. We ended up just going back to our office and doing our default, which is playing board games and video games and having a couple of drinks and just having a good time.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Jason Ward:
Yeah. I just loved it that that’s emblematic of the culture of the organization and that everyone’s so collaborative and collective, but also the talent level we have that they were able to get in there and literally beat the record for that challenge.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, absolutely. And you were able to accomplish something while having fun with the group.

Jason Ward:
Yeah.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, you guys do have a great culture and that’s one of the things that really attracted us to RocketBuild when we began working together. And you have a really cool office environment too. Maybe want to tell us a little bit about where that’s located?

Jason Ward:
Yeah, absolutely. So we recently moved into a great little spot in Fountain Square, which for those of you who are familiar with Indianapolis, is one of the great cultural districts of the city. We’re right on Virginia Avenue. We have an office space inside a small suite of offices. I think there are four companies there. It’s cute. I’m going to use “charming”, which means of course it’s small, but very nice. And we just love being in that neighborhood. So many choices for lunch. And if you want to go for a walk, there are plenty of areas to walk around. The energy is just fantastic.

Heather Hoffman:
It’s got a great vintage feel.

Jason Ward:
Yeah, that’s true too. Yeah. All the brick buildings and all the older homes and things like that. Yeah.

Heather Hoffman:
That’s cool. So you’ve touched on this a little bit, the types of services and products that RocketBuild offers. Let’s kind of take that with a twist and maybe if you can share with us some of the really cool projects you’ve done in the past, maybe sort of just a few of them. Talk about a few of your customers and maybe share some things that would resonate with our audience here.

Jason Ward:
Yeah, absolutely. So, as I mentioned before, our bread and butter really is mobile applications and web applications and then a smaller sliver of our business, the one we like just as much as those enterprise level websites. And I mentioned that before that we have talked to a couple of, or worked with a couple of HR related projects in the past. I’ll talk about a couple of those and then talk about some of our bigger projects that were really exciting from the startup perspective.

So our first is an organization called INvets. They’re located here in Indianapolis and their goal is to help place veterans into great careers here in the state of Indiana. So they’re trying to sort of fight brain drain by bringing veterans from all over the country who are leaving the armed services, actively bringing them into Indiana and Indianapolis to find some of these cool jobs that big employers that Cummins, Faurecia, and Toyota and stuff like that. So it’s a cool organization doing some great work. And the unique service they offer is a system for translating and evaluating the skills and talents of a veteran based on what they’ve listed as their veteran or military service. So if you had a certain job it translate them to these skills in the civilian world and so on and so forth.

So it’s a really good organization. Wes Wood over there has done a bang up job with what he’s doing. It’s got a real startup mentality to it, but they’re doing a very good service for the community, which we love. Our project for them was literally building the platform that allows the veterans to get in there, set up a profile, load their resumes, and then browse the positions with the companies that exist. The reverse of it though, the thing that it does that’s a little different from other platforms, is the company also maintains profile and they can go browse the veterans. Which have been objectively scored through the platform in the system so that they could see what skills they would have and how they would translate into the workforce.

Heather Hoffman:
And that really just ties right into DirectEmployers, mission.

Jason Ward:
Absolutely.

Heather Hoffman:
Greater fit.

Jason Ward:
Yeah. A great fit. I think that’s probably our project that hits the nail on the head the most in terms of the transition to the HR space. So I kicked it off with that. Now we’ll go towards some stuff that’s maybe a little more distant, but still an HR.

Heather Hoffman:
Sure.

Jason Ward:
Purdue University—get a hoorah in there.

Heather Hoffman:
Make sure that Candee hears that one.

Jason Ward:
Purdue University hired us a couple of years ago for one of their divisions called LTAP, which means the “Local Technical Assistance Program”. Not a very sexy name, but what they do with some really cool work for municipalities across the country, mainly in Indiana, but also across the country. They provide training content for road workers and surveyors and all sorts of other people who work for municipalities and counties and states to be out there and be safe and well educated in the field.

They looked at creating a technology that would allow these workers who are out in the field, sometimes with very limited connectivity, to receive on demand, just-in-time training on a piece of equipment or a process or a procedure. We solved that by essentially looking at the TEDx application. If you guys are familiar with that or the TED application, I think is what it’s called. And saying, “Okay, this is an organization that’s doing a really good job. Can we do something similar for this niche market?” And we ended up doing it. We built a Python Django application that allows LTAP at Purdue to serve that content up. And then users who are members of the organization can use their cell phones to download or access via streaming, if they have a connection, this training content.

More importantly, what it does is allow LTAP and the folks that they serve to track what videos have been viewed, to what extent to see what content is most valuable, most useful and so on. So, yeah, they’re out there trying to make sure that their workforce is educated and safe. And to me, that falls, well, not in the recruiting space, definitely still in the HR space.

Heather Hoffman:
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jason Ward:
So a couple of other projects we have, and this is going down the avenue of more of the startup and innovation space, are Oobeo, which I’m going to go ahead and spell that one out if people want to look it up. They were a very well funded startup out of the UK actually. Based half in United Kingdom and half in Sarasota, Florida strangely. And they looked at the valet space and said, “This is an area that is unbelievably underserved.” Believe it or not. And I didn’t know until we got into this project, that valets are actually an augmentation service provided by these sort of central large organizations to smaller firms like restaurants and hotels. I had just assumed until we started working with Oobeo, that these restaurants and hotels were managing their own valets, which turns out is not the case at all.

So Oobeo had us build a technology that is on the web on tablets and on phones to allow an organization that manages these many locations and many valets to manage their workforce, manage scheduling, manage the location of cars, manage who’s on duty, take payments and communicate with customers all in this single platform. It was a very big undertaking getting the minimum viable product (MVP) out to market took about eight months, which is a pretty long build in our world. And then the project in total, before they got to market and started really generating revenue, was about a year and a half. So it was a big project for us, but also one that allowed us to work in a lot of technologies in a very large space ripe for disruption. Yeah.

Heather Hoffman:
Very neat. Well, and then I know that you have a ton of other stories that you could share, but Recruit Rooster was a customer at one time.

Jason Ward:
Yup.

Heather Hoffman:
And now that’s what really led us to this acquisition and to join forces on an even closer level, which we’re just so excited about. We feel like our culture is really aligned. So maybe if you want to talk about that process and how we were introduced to one another and the journey that that led us here.

Jason Ward:
Absolutely. Yeah. So again, a lot of life comes down to happenstance when you think about it. It’s about being at the right place at the right time or having the right message at the right time sometimes. And about, I want to say September, maybe August of last year, 2019, Recruit Rooster without looking for some help in augmenting application development that was being done internally and they’re… they vetted, or you vetted, I should say this is interesting talking to someone about someone, right?

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Ward:
Heather was out in the world, vetting a number of folks, Heather and Seth. And the rest of the team over there at Recruit Rooster was out vetting potential partners and arrived at RocketBuild. And we immediately hit it off. There was just I think a good gel of personalities. We thrive on transparency and openness and honesty and Recruit Rooster is the same way. So we were able to go into these conversations and say, “What problem are you trying to solve? What are the potential roadblocks?” And “Is RocketBuild the right partner to be able to help over those?” And luckily the answer was, “Yes.”

You fit right in our wheelhouse, the work that you guys want to do. We were excited about the technology. In a lot of ways, Recruit Rooster runs like a startup. Even though the team has been around for a good number of years, working together, Recruit Rooster itself, as an individual entity has an entrepreneurial and startup mentality, that is, “We need to be pushing the envelope all the time.”

Heather Hoffman:
Absolutely.

Jason Ward:
So, yeah, I’d love to hear your perspective that a little.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. I was going to say, I remember that day vividly. We were in Candee’s car and it was myself, Candee, Seth and Steven that went out to the RocketBuild headquarters. And we had a couple of different interviews that day. And we knew, we knew that day, that RocketBuild was our choice, at least to partner. And just as we’ve moved along through projects and welcomed you guys into our office, the teams just mesh so well. And we’ve just had so much success these last few years that it made sense to bring you guys on to really diversify our portfolio.

So we’ve known for a number of months that this has been in the works. And it’s interesting acquiring a company in the midst of a pandemic. We’ve all been working remote and trying to do our best with engaging the teams. We actually have a fun little cocktail hour this afternoon where we’re going to play some games, but we’re really excited about what’s in store for us working together, moving forward.

Jason Ward:
Yeah, I’m really excited too. I know in my team is. It’s nice to be able to have growth that has the opportunity to exponentially increase impact. And growth always increases impact when you hire somebody or when you bring out a new project or what have you. But when you get to double the size of your team, and that goes for both of us, there’s a great opportunity to accelerate and we’re excited to move forward with more technology in the HR space to help augment what you guys are doing and to augment with what DirectEmployers is doing and also to continue serving the clients we have and finding our own new clients the same way we used to.

Heather Hoffman:
Absolutely. So for our listeners, they’ve seen DirectEmployers just continue to grow. And this really all started in 2012. And it seems like we’re just constantly adding new product lines, brands, initiatives just left and right. Every time you turned around. In 2019, DirectEmployers introduced the DE Academy, which is an online learning portal for HR professionals. And then in the fall, we announced Taapestry at the affirmative action and EEO arm of the business. And now with the introduction of RocketBuild, my question to you, Jason is where does RocketBuild’s company fit into the DE family of brands?

Jason Ward:
Yeah. So it’s only been since April 1st. It feels like a lot longer, but I’m still new here, right?

Heather Hoffman:
It feels like we’ve been together for many months, right?

Jason Ward:
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think everyone feels over the last couple of months, time has slowed down a little bit. And everything just feels like it’s taking a little bit longer and everything is a little more difficult. So when I, when I think about it, I’m just shocked how quickly it came together and how natural the fit has been in light of all of the difficulties around the world.

So, yeah, I’m still new here. And from where I sit, it’s just a ton of opportunity. For RocketBuild and for Recruit Rooster and DirectEmployers. We’re going to add some depth in what you guys are already doing, but I think we also get to add some breadth in terms of new services being provided. It’s not only about making what you do better through technology. It’s also about providing new services to members and to clients that Recruit Rooster and making sure that we can be an affordable, effective, and just natural fit for some of the services that those clients and members might need.

You guys have some great logos. You guys have some great Members. I’m jealous, or I was jealous. Now I get to be part of it. But I was jealous looking at some of the folks y’all work with. And now I get to work with them too, which is going to be a ton of fun. I look forward to the challenge of getting in there and helping some of the Members and the customers that Recruit Rooster has and just being a resource to troubleshoot, to perform some discovery, and just augment what you guys are already doing. And if that leads to new work that we can be really proud of and excited about that’s even better.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah, absolutely. So without giving away too much information, let’s give our listeners just a little peek at what’s to come. If you can answer the question, what kind of new recruitment offerings can we expect from this new partnership?

Jason Ward:
So I can tell you what we’ve already worked on and we can go from there. So we started with this Similar Jobs Widget, which I think a lot of customers are probably already using out there, if I were to guess. I know that Seth and Steven have both said that they’ve been putting that out there in the world and it’s been going well. So that’s exciting. RocketBuild built that widget and obviously it was a lot. That was our first project, so we had a lot of guidance from the team, but we were able to get that together. And then the team got it integrated and that’s going well from my perspective.

We also are just now piloting a new project that RocketBuild worked on in conjunction with the DE development team, which is the Google Talent Search. That is on a couple of platforms right now, I believe, but there’s not wide circulation. Hopefully folks find that and get it useful and tell us how we can improve it. And we’ll keep it out there in the world, because that was a pretty cool augmentation to what you guys have going on.

Going forward, we’re looking at a couple of very exciting pieces of technology to augment what Recruit Rooster is doing. The platform is going to be growing. I can’t really say exactly what those projects are, but stay tuned. We’re going to be releasing stuff later this summer. And we’re looking forward to there being a ton of adoption, a ton of excitement, and hopefully a ton of conversations with clients on how to make it better and keep growing it.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. That’s a great way to kind of do the smoke and mirrors. We’ve got some fun things coming, stay tuned. Here’s a little bit of what we’ve done in the past. So yeah, we’re really excited to launch some things in the upcoming months.

Jason Ward:
Much, much bigger things.

Heather Hoffman:
Yes. Yes. All right. So we’ve talked a little bit about the DE family of brands and where RocketBuild fits into the mix. With DE having a solid development team. Will Recruit Rooster customers have access to the RocketBuild development team resources?

Jason Ward:
Absolutely. We’re looking forward to having a more unified front going forward and saying, “Look, we are an extension of Recruit Rooster, and we now have these three or four very,” I’m going to say, “easily married services to go with what Recruit Rooster’s already offering.” So I would say, look forward to there being a lot of go to market strategy where we’re together on things.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Jason Ward:
Look forward to the sales team and the membership teams saying, “Hey, we’ve also got these other folks over here that can help you solve that problem if you’ve got it.” And I’ll be talking to all of you in the near future.

Heather Hoffman:
Sounds great. Okay. So this question may be more directed for me. We’ll see. We’ll see how you do responding. Do you see this acquisition changing Recruit Rooster’s direction with the talent acquisition market?

Jason Ward:
I don’t think so. Changing direction would be a bit extreme.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Jason Ward:
I think what you’re going to see is there are supports in the road that just will allow us to take a couple of forks rather than just one sometimes. Right?

Heather Hoffman:
Yup.

Jason Ward:
Again, it’s that augmentation. I don’t think that anything is going to change in terms of the primary direction. This just allows us to put a little more area of coverage in those directions.

Heather Hoffman:
You nailed it. All right. I’ve got one more question for you and we’ve all been quarantined. I think we’re going on eight weeks, if I’m not mistaken, and it can be tough to focus on the positive. It has been at least for me. And so I’m always trying to find joy in the small things, but I know you have a family at home and maybe if you could tell us a little bit about your family and your quarantine time the last few months. Any fun stories that you can share with us?

Jason Ward:
Oh, my. I’ve been spending so much time outside with the kiddos during the day, which is something I don’t normally get to do, right? You have these great spring days and normally I’m at the office or in meetings. And I miss those afternoons of being out in the sunshine and the cool 60 and 70 degree temperatures. So yeah, we’ve been hunkered down just like everyone else. I am recording this podcast from a different location, but I have been every day in my dining room working right next to my kids who are doing all the elearning.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah.

Jason Ward:
So I’ve got a wife, three kids. I’ve got Cami who is my wife, Corrine, Juliet and Gavin are my kiddos. And they’re… I feel like what’s strange is I feel like everyone’s kind of enjoying it a little bit. In the sense that we get to be together more. That comes with its own friction, of course.

Heather Hoffman:
Sure.

Jason Ward:
But it’s one of those things where this is my first family; RocketBuild’s my second family. I need to look at this as an opportunity to spend a little bit more time with my first family before going back to the second family in the office.

Heather Hoffman:
Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that with us. That is so fun. All right. Well, that does it for today. We’re out of time. I want to think Jason for joining us today! DirectEmployers and Recruit Rooster have continued to stay on the forefront with technology and development. And I greatly look forward to seeing some of our project work and future plans come to light. So thank you again for tuning in to the QuaranDEAM Edition of the DE Talk podcast. With so many great topics to cover. Be sure to follow DirectEmployers on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and subscribe to the DE Talk podcast to receive notifications of new episodes. And feel free to connect with Jason and I on LinkedIn as well. So thank you so much for listening!